The 4th of JULY 2023 Celebrations--Why Should We Celebrate?

[Chevdove]

 

 

 

The 4th of JULY 2023 Celebrations--Why Should We Celebrate? 

 

 

 

 

I wonder how many African Americans are observing this holiday.

 

For me, I like to come to communities like this and search for other input and try to learn more about this amazing time period in history. So I will pose these questions:

 

What are the main causes that led up to the American Revolution?

 And, What was the first colony to practice slavery?

 

 Some of the information presented today, I do not remember learning when I was young and in school. It was not until I went to college, that for the first time, I heard that one of the main causes was due to the PECULIAR INSTITUTION.

 

 

But after that time when after I graduated, and due to the internet, there is so much more information offered about this critical historical time period.

 

So now, I come to realize that ‘the CROWN’ began to pressure the AMERICANS to stop slavery! And so, this was hidden knowledge though and so, this is why I had a difficult time understanding the real reason behind the American Revolution. Therefore, I struggled over the terminologies and my report card reflected that I was not a great student in this subject back then! I had to use rote memory instead of merely being able to understand what the conflict was really about. It had to be big though, in my mind, because a lot of American men ran to the front lines and were willing to fight the British and die for what they believed.

 

What I slightly remember being taught but now, have a better understanding was that THE CONTINENTAL ARMY formed under General George Washington due to the anger about taxation. The British government was being aggressive and demanding taxes from the Americans and so, the Americans were like ‘NO! You Brits are not going to turn us into slaves!”

 

So then one of the tactics used by the Brits was that the Americans wanted to continue dominating over trade because of the advantage of having slaves, and therefore, the Brits use this tactic to try and continue to dominate over trade power. So therefore, this war became intense!

 

It was many years before I learned that George Washington had slaves.

 

Also, I had absolutely no idea what it really meant to be in a Colonial government. Now I can imagine the truth much better. Now, I can visualize that all throughout the Thirteen Colonies, especially in the New England ‘colonies’ States, there were British people living in America and they had homes, churches, and military bases, forts, built up! And, the communities were not scattered little houses across the countryside, however, many of them were well built homes, some brick, some plank boards, some multistoried, with well cultivated yards and communities that were surrounded and hidden behind well built up brick walls!

 

I can imagine this now, how the British lived in their American colonies and for the first time, I can perceive their wealthy lifestyles. And the Americans were becoming a distinct body of people to whom the British people, living right here in America, became more dominant and were the men that enforced their government policies on the Americas. And so, the European Americans began to get puffed up, when they realized that the British became arrogant. This newfound knowledge I have acquired over the recent years and it is amazing me! Now I can better understand why the Regulators in North Carolina and South Carolina formed and became aggressive. I can relate the stories of my relatives that were from South Carolina to this time period with other facts such as a time when the Regulators took control of an Anglican church in the Carolinas! Now I can better understand some of the distinctions between the churches that the British set up versus the Protestants and etc. More importantly, I can see that some of this history was not part of our curriculum in such a way to understand. I believe that we have been conditioned to believe that chattel slavery was in the deep south and the movement to abolish slavery came from the north. However, what has not been commonly taught would be that slavery existed for hundreds of years in the New England colonies. What was the first state, ‘colony’ to practice slavery? Did you know that it was in the state of Rhode Island!?

 

Yes, African victims were stolen from Africa much earlier than the A.D. 1600s and many of them were brought to be enslaved in Rhode Island and it was a very intense movement. The Triangle Trade was established in New England and shipyards were up there whereby lumber was brought there to construct vessels. There are books written by slaves in New England that are not common to us that reveal the horrors of those victims endured. Even though the history has always been available, however, it was not taught in a formal format so as to understand about slavery in New England. It only ended about a few years before the underground railroad was set up. Therefore, we are conditioned to think that slaves in the south always wanted to escape to the north to freedom, when that mindset did not become an option until hundreds of years later.

 

So now, fast forward to this day, and yes, I can understand why many Afro-Americans celebrate the 4th of July as Independence day, even though at that time, the chattel slavery law, was the very issue for the Separation of Church and State. The crown pushed the issue of religion in the faces of the Americans about slavery, and they were like, ‘OKAY, SO WE WILL JUST DROP RELIGION THEN, and KEEP OUR SLAVES. WE WILL MAKE A CONSTITUTION AND INCLUDE THE STATEMENT THAT BLACKS ARE CONSIDERED TO BE TWO-THIRDS HUMAN, THEREFORE, WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO KEEP THEM AS SUB-HUMAN.’ So then, the Americans did not have to keep using their Slave Bibles after this. LOL.

 

Yes, I do believe that this American Revolution is more about keeping slaves which ties into the issue of taxation and trade. The Brits tried to pull their 'trump card', so-to-speak after they decided that slavery was not going to benefit them in keeping control over the Americans. Americans were acting like naughty children who became selfish when they realized that they could be in control of their production and did not need the Brits anymore to be their leaders. [i.e. *Prophecy; The Eighth Beast came from the Seventh, however the severence was not a peaceful one, initially]

 

Nevertheless, today, many Afro-Americans fought for our freedom from this law and today, they celebrate with other Americans such as many European Americans that also fought to abolish chattel slavery in the law books and being in practice. But, the trouble now would be that some form of slavery is still ongoing.  Some of us Americans, whether we are African American or European American, etc. do not believe that slavery has been completely abolished at all. In fact, the constitution still allows for it. So, ultimately, this American system is still lingering on the very first works of the set up and establishment of slavery and therefore, its’ effects are still occurring in other forms and going under the guise of being acceptable under the law. At any rate, again, I can understand why many African Americans celebrate Independence Day. A side note; It is certainly eerie that two of the original signers of the Declaration of Independence died on July 4, about fifty years later.

 

Lastly though, I look forward to sharing some ancient scripts about the prophecy of Daniel that does reveal what is happening today. 

 

The Fourth of July—also known as Independence Day or July 4th—has been a federal holiday in the United States since 1941, but the tradition of Independence Day celebrations goes back to the 18th century and the American Revolution. On July 2nd, 1776, the Continental Congress voted in favor of independence, and two days later delegates from the 13 colonies adopted the Declaration of Independence, a historic document drafted by Thomas Jefferson. 

 

https://www.history.com/topics/holidays/july-4th 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pioneer1]

I think as AfroAmericans we should celebrate BOTH July 4th AND June 19th as BOTH are important dates for our liberty.

If there was no Independence from Britain in July 4 1776....there wouldn't have been an eventual Emancipation from CHATTLE Slavery in 1865.
So both are worth celebrating.

But I DO understand the arguments made by those AfroAmericans who refuse to celebrate it.

I think every stand we take and every point we make should be MEANINGFUL.
Don't be rebellious simply for the sake of being a rebel.

I know some Black folks who grow beards simply because corporate America prefers that men be clean shaven.....just growing a bushy ass beard out of some silly protest.
Others wear corn rows because they figure White folks DON'T approve of it.

Last St. Patricks day, most of the White folks and a few of the Black and Latino folks at work were celebrating it.....I didn't.
But I didn't go around with a chip on my shoulder making a big deal over it and lecturing them on the history of that murderous criminal who was NOT a saint.
I just....didn't celebrate and went on home.
But some Black folks went around wearing shirts saying "St Patrick Wasn't Black" and other shirts meant to antagonize White folks...lol.

I put this KNEELING for the pledge of allegiance in the same category.
Kneeling and turning around and spinning and spitting on the flag and running out the door as soon as the song comes on ain't doing a DAMN THING to stop police brutality.
But niggas are NOTORIOUS for doing shit that DOES NOT WORK.
So while half of the NFL and NBA are getting scabs on their knees from kneeling for the pledge of allegiance....White cops are STILL busting caps.

Too many of our people are doing shit JUST to get a reaction from Whites.
Just trying to get attention.
Not actually SOLVING problems in our community...but just trying to get attention and piss White folks off as if THAT will solve some of our problems.
If anything, it often makes MORE problems because then those same White folks will out of cowardice take their anger and frustration out in other harmful ways.

We should focus more on doing that which BENEFITS us (whether it pleases White folks or angers them should be irrelevant) and less on what we believe pisses off White folks just to see the angry scowl on their faces....lol.

[richardmurray]

@Pioneer1

 I study history , and in my assessment, notice I didn't say I was right or wrong ... in my assessment your following statement is assumption.

Quote

If there was no Independence from Britain in July 4 1776....there wouldn't have been an eventual Emancipation from CHATTLE Slavery in 1865.
So both are worth celebrating.

 

What do I know ? I know that even though the british lost the war against the colonies, they did uphold their bargain to the majority of the  free black people of the british colonies, said folk  who fought against the whites of the colonies. If anyone else reads this notice what I said, they fought against the whites of the colonies. The USA has in it a blood feud that too many have tried to make unreal through media but clearly exists even today.

But what does that have to do with your quote Pioneer. You suggest that if britain would had won, then no war between the states. But you forget  in your assessment of history, if britain would had won based on their own actions in losing and in the war of 1812 which in my view was the true end to the USA as colonies of britain going forward. Britain was always going to allow Black people in the usa to have rights equal to the whites in the usa if britain won. I don't think britain would had ended slavery but they would had universalized slavery. Meaning what. I guess, no one can know so I am not saying I am right or wrong, that if britain won, the black soldiers would had to play a key role <<it is a joke of nature that black soldiers of the french empire coming from hispanola, that would be soon haiti fought for the colonies. If Haiti had been created, before the usa, said black soldiers don't fight for the french against the british but fightffor haiti alongside britain against france side the usa, only conjecture but it fits>> and based on what britian did in losing, which the usa didn't want. Britian would had given the black soldiers land and rights, equal to any whites in the colonies. why? Ths had nothing t do with europe. Britain only wanted money from the colonies. Britain would not had minded money as long as they are getting it. Sequentially, slavery wouldn't had ended but the phenotypical bounds of slavery in masters or enslaved I think would had ended. And that would had changed human history. To be blunt, chattel slavery still goes on in the usa even, through various cult groups , so slavery never ended , cause it can't, slavery is an element of human culture, forever, the question is, who is enslaved and who is enslaving.  I argue the usa becomes like the roman empire , where being enslaved or being an enslaver was polyphenotypical, it had no bounds on appearance... any human could do both. 

Thanks for the historical question near july 4th

[Chevdove]

6 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

I put this KNEELING for the pledge of allegiance in the same category.
Kneeling and turning around and spinning and spitting on the flag and running out the door as soon as the song comes on ain't doing a DAMN THING to stop police brutality.
But niggas are NOTORIOUS for doing shit that DOES NOT WORK.
So while half of the NFL and NBA are getting scabs on their knees from kneeling for the pledge of allegiance....White cops are STILL busting caps.

 

IDK @Pioneer1 Just like when Rosa Parks refused to get up, I think that kneeling did make a statement. Alot of people all over the world weighed in when Colin Kapernick made that brave move. I even remember watching the half time show last year and I think it was Vanilla Ice, that made the statement on stage. As I had mentioned about the Regulators, even though they were persecuted,a lot of historians say that was a movement that tipped the scales that eventually started the war of Revolution. 

 

@richardmurray What you wrote is SO INTERESTING! Thank you!

 

 

[richardmurray]

@Chevdove what do you think? 

history can not be changed while alternative histories can not be known. My position can not be proven nor can pioneer's position be proven absolute. The only thing that is certain is what happened. but how history is assessed explains ourselves and i think many black people in the usa show they are, safe pragmatist, in how they assess history. 

Taking every turn of history in the usa as a positive step on a path is best, not because it is fact, which is what the past is, not because it must be assessed positivlely, which is only opinion, but because it fits the strategy of seeing the choices the black community, in particular, DOS community has made as to the best interest of the black community. But I argue many events in usa or its european colonial history are not for the best for the black community or at least its majority and do not lead to wiser situations in the time after said events. 

[ProfD]

As with every other holiday,  I use the 4th of July as another opportunity to eat, drink and fellowship with family and friends.

 

While I'll never run around being an arsonist, I enjoy pyrotechnics.

 

I happen to live a fews minutes driving distance of seeing the national fireworks display on the Mall. 

 

I can celebrate holidays as described above and maintain my  pro-Black advocacy and anti-racism white supremacy stance as well.

[Pioneer1]

 

richardmurray

 

History could have played out in a million different ways.
I've heard and read so many different versions of what really happened and what the truth is.

-Some say America DID really get her independence from England but is actually STILL under the monarchy.
-Some say the Civil War wasn't about slavery but about something else.
-Some say...and I agree...that Slavery didn't really end.
-Some say there WAS a war for Independence and America won but the dates are all wrong.
-Some say there WAS a Civil War fought to free Black folks from slavery but THOSE dates are all wrong too.

 

However what we can pretty much agree upon is:

1. This land used to be completely controled by England....there was a major war between the people here and the British and now it's no longer completely controled by England.

2. Black people in this nation used to be pretty much confined to the South and forced to do heavy labor with no compensation, a major war was fought on this land for a multitude of reasons...and afterwards that was no longer the case for most of our poeple.

Until I can get some more convincing evidence to show me otherwise, I'm going to rock with the above historical accounts.

 

 

 

 

 

Chev

 

Just like when Rosa Parks refused to get up, I think that kneeling did make a statement. 

 

Rosa Park's refusal to get up DID make a statement but it didn't win us our Civil Rights.
The Right Reverend Dr. MLK and his efforts along with the riots of the 60s is what primarily got us our Civil Rights.

 

Rosa just INSPIRED people to take action...but it was the ACTION ITSELF that got the results.

 

 

 

 

Alot of people all over the world weighed in when Colin Kapernick made that brave move.

 

Ofcourse they did, because it was a NON-THREATENING and pretty USELESS tactic to stop police brutality.

 

White folks LOVE to support Black causes they know are useless.
Which is why so many show up in large numbers to support Black folks who just march and sing in response to racist violence.

They'll support you to the FULLEST.

They'll show up by the thousands and even donate large sums of money just to stand around with you holding candles and chanting for peace and forgiveness.

 

 

"Ebony and Ivory.....live TOGETHER in perfect....harmony!"
 

 

 

But if you start burning and tearing up White businesses and chasing the racists down the street....the money will dry up and the White folks will disappear on you.

 

Wait for the riot police and troopers to show up

 

Those same White folks will be at home watching the scene on CNN while those damn candles are melting all over the sidewalk!

Got an abusive husband?
He'll support going to therapy and talking things over with the church pastor all day!
But the moment you talk about actually LEAVING his ass.....lol...that's when things get hot.
That's an actual SOLUTION to the problem, and some people don't want that.

[harry brown]

Black. People Are. Enslaved  Every. Week. The. Preachers. Stealing. ,All. The. Church. Money. Buying. Cars. Not. Uplifting. Black,Communities..  NAACP. ,Black. Politicians. Support. Preachers ,Stealing. All. The. Church. Money.  They. Control. Black. Votes.,They,Are. Happy. When. Billions. Of. U. S. Money. Goes. To. The. Ukraine. ,Zero. Money For. Poor. Inner. City. Schools. And,Communities...Poverty. Drug. Crime. ,Gangsters. Enslave ,Black,Communities ....Black. People. Should. Declare. Independence   From. Our. Own People....

[richardmurray]

@Pioneer1 all i will say is I can't agree or I don't like or can't accept  the following from you  as analagous to my perception

Quote

1. This land used to be completely controled by England....there was a major war between the people here and the British and now it's no longer completely controled by England.

2. Black people in this nation used to be pretty much confined to the South and forced to do heavy labor with no compensation, a major war was fought on this land for a multitude of reasons...and afterwards that was no longer the case for most of our poeple.

For me, and me alone, I ask no one to agree or change their opinion, but again for me I can't say how I describe said events fits how you describe it.   

[Pioneer1]

richardmurray

I understand that you aren't asking anyone to change their opinion.....but I WOULD change my opinion if I were presented with proof or atleast solid evidence that my opinion on the matter was wrong.

Else....it's just one man's opinion of history vs another.
We need a stable criteria in which we can all reasonably agree on.
 

[richardmurray]

@Pioneer1 the black community in the usa never had a philosophy to concur on cause the goals of views of the various black groups are too variant. That is just the historical reality. 

My only suggestion is for those who think like you, who share your opinion, collate and do. 

[Stefan]

I stopped saying the Pledge when I was eight and do not celebrate the Fourth. 

[Chevdove]

On 7/3/2023 at 1:54 AM, richardmurray said:

But I argue many events in usa or its european colonial history are not for the best for the black community or at least its majority and do not lead to wiser situations in the time after said events. 

 

@richardmurray yes, I think that for some DOS, or perhaps a small minority, they have benefitted from certain movements and laws, however, for most we perceive that many events have not improved our quality of life at all, and in fact life has gotten much worse. However, in terms of understanding how certain historical events such as the American Revolution, have helped to further our cause to attain relief is important to recognise. By and by, more truths have surfaced and this does help. For instance, it becomes truth that the issue of chattel slaver was a main reason that led to the revolt, but then amazingly, the later Civil War became a major conflict that addressed this very issue! So, I believe that there were people on both sides of the conflict of the American Revolution, that did not agree with chattel slavery, but this issue was not able to surface at that time; but it did later! 

 

 

On 7/3/2023 at 9:43 AM, Pioneer1 said:

Rosa Park's refusal to get up DID make a statement but it didn't win us our Civil Rights.
The Right Reverend Dr. MLK and his efforts along with the riots of the 60s is what primarily got us our Civil Rights.

 

Rosa just INSPIRED people to take action...but it was the ACTION ITSELF that got the results.

 

LOL! @Pioneer1 I can't believe that you don't know the full story! 

IT WAS PLANNED!!!

The Late Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and others of the NAACP got together and planned before they took action!

Rose Parks was part of that plan! LOL! 

She was selected to be the one to make that protest on the bus. So, they planned for the event SHOULD SHE BE ARRESTED and to bail her out.

Then afterwards, other planned events unfolded as well, such as they got together and designated drivers to pick people up and take them to their jobs and do shopping and errands and to NOT ride the bus. They almost shut the economy down! So therefore, Rose's action was planned, and it did INSPIRE people to take action. Therefore, kneeling in protest may have the same effect. Certainly, there are a lot of people in prison today who chose violence without a good reason and a good plan and so, they are inaffective in bringing about a change in violence against this recent violence. 

 

[richardmurray]

fair enough @Chevdove

 

[Pioneer1]

On 7/5/2023 at 1:11 AM, Chevdove said:

 

LOL! @Pioneer1 I can't believe that you don't know the full story! 

IT WAS PLANNED!!!

The Late Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and others of the NAACP got together and planned before they took action!

Rose Parks was part of that plan! LOL! 

She was selected to be the one to make that protest on the bus. So, they planned for the event SHOULD SHE BE ARRESTED and to bail her out.

Then afterwards, other planned events unfolded as well, such as they got together and designated drivers to pick people up and take them to their jobs and do shopping and errands and to NOT ride the bus. They almost shut the economy down! So therefore, Rose's action was planned, and it did INSPIRE people to take action. Therefore, kneeling in protest may have the same effect. Certainly, there are a lot of people in prison today who chose violence without a good reason and a good plan and so, they are inaffective in bringing about a change in violence against this recent violence. 

 

Ofcourse it was planned.
MLK was a DOCTOR....he was no fool.
He knew the best strategy to get the results he was looking for.

Before Rosa, there was another young lady who refused to get up and give her seat to a White man and it became pretty widely known but the Right Reverend decided not to use HER as a catalyst to launch the Montgomery Boycott because she was an UNWED MOTHER.
Even at such a young age he had the wisdom to know that this particular woman may taint the credibility of his movement by drawing too much attention to HER "moral shortcomings" instead of the greater problem.
So he chose SAINT ROSA....lol.

I think that's a GREAT thing and we need to do more planning and strategizing instead of running wild in the streets and OVER reacting every time the racists poke us.
It's a show of intelligence and sophistication.

If MLK were alive today and leading the anti-police brutality movement....he wouldn't be highlighting and glorifying Black men who are criminals and dead beats.

Here's some nigga who just spent 30 years in prison for killing 2 innocent people in a drug deal gone bad and as soon as he get's out...he robs a liquor store and the police catch him and whoops his ass.
Although he doesn't deserve to catch a beat down......THAT'S not the type of person you burn down half a damn city over.
No....
Although they DO NOT deserve to be abused let alone killed, those aren't the type of people you put up as poster children for victims of brutality.

He would have kept BREONNA TAYLOR'S name on everybody's lips and her death would have been the catalyst for a global movement.
 

[Troy]

On 7/2/2023 at 6:29 PM, Pioneer1 said:

If there was no Independence from Britain in July 4 1776....there wouldn't have been an eventual Emancipation from CHATTLE Slavery in 1865.
So both are worth celebrating.

well if were still part of Britain we may have been emancipated decades earlier.

 

On 7/5/2023 at 1:11 AM, Chevdove said:

LOL! @Pioneer1 I can't believe that you don't know the full story! 

IT WAS PLANNED!!!

@Chevdove this is not widely known. They rarely tell the story this way.

 

On 7/6/2023 at 8:05 PM, Pioneer1 said:

Here's some nigga who just spent 30 years in prison for killing 2 innocent people in a drug deal gone bad and as soon as he get's out...h

who are you talking about here?  
 

If King were alive today, I can’t see how he would be nearly as effective as he was in his day. Same for Malcolm, Garvey, the Panthers, etc.

 

We are way too fragmented and easily distracted. 

[Pioneer1]

Troy

 

well if were still part of Britain we may have been emancipated decades earlier.

 

Perhaps.
Then maybe not....we don't know for sure.

 

What I'm ALMOST certain of, is that if the U.S. was still a colony and all of her residents were still subjects of Britain...the nation/territory today known as the U.S. wouldn't be nearly as powerful and influential as we are today.

 

AfroAmericans are the people who give the U.S. her "soul".
Not just through inventions but through the music, sports, and other forms of entertainment that people around the planet seek to emulate and imitate.
We set the trends.

If you look at Black cultures that existed UNDER British rule whether they were in Africa or the Caribbean....they were suppressed and lacked the luster we exhibit.

Even Jamaican culture and the influence of Reggae didn't get poppin' until after they achieved their "independence" from Britain.

 

 

 

 

who are you talking about here?  
 
That was a proverbial example.
Obviously the right-wing media does a hit job on most of the Black victims of police brutality by bringing up their criminal records and past discretions so as for the public to feel less sorry for them and see them as perputrators instead of victims.

But much of that is OUR fault because we don't exert enough control over WHO get's the spotlight as victims of police brutality in the first place.
 

 

No disrespect to our brother George who DID NOT deserve to be treated that way and killed....however why were their riots all over the nation for George Floyd who wasn't exactly a saint....but very little said about our sister Breonna Taylor who did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to provoke the police to kill her and had an ABSOLUTELY CLEAN criminal record?

Both of them were unfortunate victims, but from a PR perspective Breonna would have been a more IDEAL example.
 

Who get's to choose what the world sees?

I believe if King or Shabazz were with us leading their Movements...Breonna's case would take the lead.

My overall point is, just like MLK did by choosing Rosa to be the posterchild to launch his movement instead of the unwed mother....WE should be picking and choosing which victims of racism is held up infront of the world as a posterchild.
Not letting our enemies pick and choose them for us.

 

 

 

 

We are way too fragmented and easily distracted.

 

What does this say about the current Black leadership?

One of the jobs of a GOOD Black leader is to UNITE the community and prevent this fragmentation and distraction from occuring!
 

That's literally the role of a leader!
 

It's like I tell the managers at my job when they complain about the performance and attitude of the workers.
This may be true, but it's YOUR job as a manager to encourage better performance and attitude.  If you can't do this, then YOU aren't qualified to be leader or manager and someone who CAN should be in that position.

 

It's the same with social and political leadership positions.
Yes our people are divided, but for whatever the reasons Black people are divided.....a good leader should be smart enough and capable enough to OVER COME these reasons and UNITE the community.
 

[richardmurray]

@Troy thank you. 

@Pioneer1 the problem is a question of association: black emancipation from white enslavement side the potency of the usa.  by your words

Quote

e nation/territory today known as the U.S. wouldn't be nearly as powerful and influential as we are today.

you used the word we representing the populace of the usa in a topic about whether black people will be emancipated. Are these topics connected. 

You think they are. 

I quote you again

Quote

AfroAmericans are the people who give the U.S. her "soul".
Not just through inventions but through the music, sports, and other forms of entertainment that people around the planet seek to emulate and imitate.
We set the trends.

If you look at Black cultures that existed UNDER British rule whether they were in Africa or the Caribbean....they were suppressed and lacked the luster we exhibit.

Even Jamaican culture and the influence of Reggae didn't get poppin' until after they achieved their "independence" from Britain.

 

The connection to the USA of or the value to the USA from the Black populace in it, or the condition of the black community in the usa in parallel to other black communities for many black people are not related to the emancipation of black people from whites. 

 

To your question

Quote

What does this say about the current Black leadership?

One of the jobs of a GOOD Black leader is to UNITE the community and prevent this fragmentation and distraction from occuring!
 

That's literally the role of a leader!

Most black leaders are negative. But that happens. 

The problem is the association, 

for you

positive leadership = leadership 

but it doesn't. 

And it connects to my point about individualism. 

Under individualism, one is only responsible to lead thyself, not lead others, which is a key point. 

Under individualism, those who are negative leaders from a communal view, are 100% acceptible ro positive, under indivdiualism

[Pioneer1]

 

richardmurray

 

The connection to the USA of or the value to the USA from the Black populace in it, or the condition of the black community in the usa in parallel to other black communities for many black people are not related to the emancipation of black people from whites.

 

You don't think so?

It seems to me that the more liberty AfroAmericans get..the stronger this nation gets.

After the Civil War the U.S. emerged on the scene as a world super power, and after the Civil Rights movements of the 60s the U.S. emerged as THEE world super power!

 

 

 

Most black leaders are negative. But that happens. 

The problem is the association, 

for you

positive leadership = leadership 

but it doesn't. 

And it connects to my point about individualism. 

Under individualism, one is only responsible to lead thyself, not lead others, which is a key point. 

Under individualism, those who are negative leaders from a communal view, are 100% acceptible ro positive, under indivdiualism

Leadership skills are like energy, it can be used for good or bad.
If most of the leaders of a given community are bad, then it's up to the GOOD leaders to step up and counter them instead of allowing things to spiral downwardly.
 

[Chevdove]

On 7/6/2023 at 8:05 PM, Pioneer1 said:

 

I think that's a GREAT thing and we need to do more planning and strategizing instead of running wild in the streets and OVER reacting every time the racists poke us.
It's a show of intelligence and sophistication.

 

 

Yes I agree! @Pioneer1

On 7/8/2023 at 8:04 AM, Troy said:

@Chevdove this is not widely known. They rarely tell the story this way.

 

So true! @Troy

I was actually surprised when I first read about this. I had no idea that it was pre-planned for Rosa Parks to respond in this way on the bus until I saw a documentary, I think, Eyes On the PRize. 

 

 

 

 

On 7/8/2023 at 9:16 AM, Pioneer1 said:

No disrespect to our brother George who DID NOT deserve to be treated that way and killed....however why were their riots all over the nation for George Floyd who wasn't exactly a saint....but very little said about our sister Breonna Taylor who did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to provoke the police to kill her and had an ABSOLUTELY CLEAN criminal record?

Both of them were unfortunate victims, but from a PR perspective Breonna would have been a more IDEAL example.
 

Who get's to choose what the world sees?

I believe if King or Shabazz were with us leading their Movements...Breonna's case would take the lead.

 

Oh! @Pioneer1 This is an interesting point because you see, this the very pre-planned case of the CROSS conflic some 2000 years ago. 

There is nothing new under the sun. The CROWD shouted and chose Barrabas even though he was a common criminal.

So I believe that Americans strategically pick and choose, as you have said, so as to set the scenario that African Americans are pre-destined to be a cursed people.

White Supremacist want to believe in this lie, and so they continually set up this scene and unfortunately, Black Americans play right into it, many times. 

When they want us to shout for George Floyd more so than Bronna Taylor and so many other Black victims, we do just that. 

And this set up a personification on a global scale that Black Americans are pure evil and Sodom and Gommorah. 

It makes me so angry, but what can be done about if?

 

 

[Chevdove]

On 7/2/2023 at 6:29 PM, Pioneer1 said:

 

If there was no Independence from Britain in July 4 1776....there wouldn't have been an eventual Emancipation from CHATTLE Slavery in 1865.
So both are worth celebrating.

 

 

 

I am grateful for positive people on both side of the conflict, however, I look at it from a much earlier aspect and believe that the British government and America and etc., are wrong for enslaving humans. 

I have said this before about many of my relatives, especially Black women like my aunts. They believe that it is a good situation for my Great grand mother to have been enslaved because their point-of-view is that we, Black Americans would never have the opportunity to be in this great American system if our ancestors did not go through being raped and enslaved. I, on the other hand, do NOT agree with this mind set. It actually makes my skin crawl, so-to-speak. 

I don't think that America is great due to slavery, however, I think that it is great because of the positive aspects such as women like Harriot Tubman, and the abolutionist movement, and the Protestant movement, etc. 

 

 

[Pioneer1]

Chev

 

 

 

 

There is nothing new under the sun. The CROWD shouted and chose Barrabas even though he was a common criminal.

So I believe that Americans strategically pick and choose, as you have said, so as to set the scenario that African Americans are pre-destined to be a cursed people.

White Supremacist want to believe in this lie, and so they continually set up this scene and unfortunately, Black Americans play right into it, many times. 

When they want us to shout for George Floyd more so than Bronna Taylor and so many other Black victims, we do just that. 

I actually didn't think about that analogy, but you're right.

Going even back to the Romans, Caucasians knew the art of public relations and had a history of picking or trying to force the "bad nigga" on us as our heroes instead of the good and decent ones among us.

 

 

 

And this set up a personification on a global scale that Black Americans are pure evil and Sodom and Gommorah. 

 

And to prove your point.....
They are pushing the LGBTQ+ agenda on Black folks both here in the U.S. and even in Africa so heavily for a reason.
They want to make the queer face a BLACK FACE.
So when you see a Black man or woman, you automatically think queer and sexually confused and perversion....instead of decency.

 

 

 

 

It makes me so angry, but what can be done about if?

 

Establish our own media outlets and support them no matter what.

We want to talk about BET and Black Twitter...lol....there used to be a time 100 years ago that nearly EVERY Black community in the United States from Harlem to San Francisco to Athens Georgia had it's own BLACK NEWS PAPERS.
We were that sophisticated!

And every major city had it's own Black radio stations as well.

Black folks weren't lazy and AS dependent on White folks as so many are today.
Racism was raw, real, and in your face so Black folks had NO CHOICE but to do for self.

 

 

 

 

I have said this before about many of my relatives, especially Black women like my aunts. They believe that it is a good situation for my Great grand mother to have been enslaved because their point-of-view is that we, Black Americans would never have the opportunity to be in this great American system if our ancestors did not go through being raped and enslaved. I, on the other hand, do NOT agree with this mind set. It actually makes my skin crawl, so-to-speak. 

 

I'm such a strong believer in the Divine that when I speak about the Divine...I don't lie but speak with honesty.
I can fool another human being by pretending I feel a certain way when I don't....but I can't fool the Divine.

I'm not going to say I was glad our people went through Slavery because I don't think it was absolutely necessary.

 

It's like someone getting their car stolen as a lesson for keeping their doors locked and staying out of dangerous neighborhoods.
...well...it's possibly they could have learned that lesson WITHOUT having their car stolen, lol.
Some say the experience provided the best learning...but really...I don't think it absolutely HAD to happen, lol.

I will say that I BELIEVE that our people went through Slavery in this nation and went through all of that pain and suffering for a greater purpose.
Do I know it for a fact?  No
Not yet.
But I believe the future will absolutely prove that what some of our Ancestors went through served a very valuable purpose.

Again, this is a STRONG BELIEF...not knowledge.

 

 

 

 

I don't think that America is great due to slavery, however, I think that it is great because of the positive aspects such as women like Harriot Tubman, and the abolutionist movement, and the Protestant movement, etc. 

 

Slavery certainly didn't make America better, but being a student of history....the way I look at America and the United States has changed over the years.

I'm more PRO-AMERICAN now than I was when I was younger for many reasons.

 

For one, yes we had Slavery...and STILL have it to a certain extent; but atleast we fought a war and end the CHATTLE part of it.  It's still going on in many parts of the world today.

Same thing with women.
Sexism still exists in the U.S. but women started off as heavily oppressed 2nd and 3 class citizens but in America they fought and raised themseles to almost equal standards.

 

Say what you want about the United States but in this nation a lot of the people's who have historically been oppressed and denegrated.....this nation has allowed them some breathing space for the first time in a LONG time in history.

Black folks have gotten richer in the U.S. quicker than they have in any other modern nation....including African nations...so far.

America despite her faults....gotta get her props...IMO.

But to keep it real Hitler learned how to perfect genocide from the U.S.
Eugenics was birthed in the U.S.
HIV, drugs, bio-chemical weapons, etc.....were also born in in the U.S.A.

You take the bitter with the sweet.
 

[Chevdove]

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

And to prove your point.....
They are pushing the LGBTQ+ agenda on Black folks both here in the U.S. and even in Africa so heavily for a reason.
They want to make the queer face a BLACK FACE.
So when you see a Black man or woman, you automatically think queer and sexually confused and perversion....instead of decency.

 

@Pioneer1 Absolutely!

This was the plan, to define this as being 'a black issue' when it was started by the Greeks. It had nothing to do with Africa.

This is why I never voted for Obama. 

This federal movement was instituted during his term. 

And, I heard that he was not raised by his father. He was raised by his grandfather, who was a White man and who was also a troubled man due to his own childhood.

I just can't believe that Black America fell for this trap. 

 

And it's not only here in America and AFrica where they are trying to define Black Americans as being homosexuals but it's global.

 

Just recently, I heard that there are many schools in Europe named after the activist ANGELA DAVIS and she is a homosexual.

One high school, was changed from being called Angela Davis high school to Rosa Parks HIgh school, in France. 

 

[richardmurray]

@Pioneer1 I don't know. It all depends on how strength is defined. And of course, that is complex.

 

well, I argue, most leaders in the black community in the usa are individualistic and thus are excellent from an individualistic point of view. And it makes communalist leaders in the black community farther and father or lesser or lesser. 

[Pioneer1]

Chev

 

This was the plan, to define this as being 'a black issue' when it was started by the Greeks. It had nothing to do with Africa.

This is why I never voted for Obama. 

This federal movement was instituted during his term. 

 

While this is true, I voted for Obama and would vote for him again if there was a choice between him and Trump despite the fact that he promoted this.

Why?

Because although it IS a problem, it's not the BIGGEST problem we're facing as a community.

I'd rather have someone in office who provides food, clothing, shelter, and medical care while promoting the LGBTQ agenda....instead of someone who promotes traditional marriage and family BUT lets people die in the streets from starvation, homelessness, and lack of healthcare.

 

This is why I say we need OUR OWN political party as AfroAmericans, so that we aren't forced into these dilemmas.

 

 

 

 

And, I heard that he was not raised by his father. He was raised by his grandfather, who was a White man and who was also a troubled man due to his own childhood.

 

This is true.
He's non-FBA and didn't really understand the true "Black Experience" of most AfroAmericans.

 

 

 

I just can't believe that Black America fell for this trap. 

 

Look at the alternative....lol.
John McCain and Sarah Pale-ass Palin.

 

 

Just recently, I heard that there are many schools in Europe named after the activist ANGELA DAVIS and she is a homosexual.

 

Facts!

 

Europe seems to do a better job in celebrating AfroAmericans PERIOD than the U.S.

I remember taking a trip over to Europe some years ago and when I was in the grocery stores....they were playing contemporary Rap music and RnB. 
You rarely hear that in the grocery stores and super markets in the U.S.A...lol.

You'll hear COUNTRY music and Light Rock...even Pop music -but rarely do they play Rap and RnB.

 

Same thing in most restaurants like Denny's and Bob Evans.
They'll play Country and Pop music with White artists SOUNDING Black, but no Black artists.

So when I went to Europe and heard that, I took notice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

richardmurray

  I don't know. It all depends on how strength is defined. And of course, that is complex.

well, I argue, most leaders in the black community in the usa are individualistic and thus are excellent from an individualistic point of view. And it makes communalist leaders in the black community farther and father or lesser or lesser. 
 

I define strength as EFFECTIVENESS.

How strong someone or something is depends on how EFFECTIVE they are or it is!

[Chevdove]

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

I'd rather have someone in office who provides food, clothing, shelter, and medical care while promoting the LGBTQ agenda....instead of someone who promotes traditional marriage and family BUT lets people die in the streets from starvation, homelessness, and lack of healthcare.

 

Obama did NOT help with providing sufficient food, clothing, shelter or medical care for Black people on any significant scale. @Pioneer1

And, I am not concered with homosexuals and their activities, however, I am concerned with Pedofiles though in this regard. 

He neither Trumps time in office helped Black people significantly, imo. 

 

1 hour ago, Pioneer1 said:

 

 

This is why I say we need OUR OWN political party as AfroAmericans, so that we aren't forced into these dilemmas.

 

 

I can see this as a benefit! 

 

 

[Pioneer1]

2 hours ago, Chevdove said:

 

Obama did NOT help with providing sufficient food, clothing, shelter or medical care for Black people on any significant scale. @Pioneer1

And, I am not concered with homosexuals and their activities, however, I am concerned with Pedofiles though in this regard. 

He neither Trumps time in office helped Black people significantly, imo. 

 

Well I'll tell you what.......I'm not going to FIGHT over his accomplishments, lol.
Because they are so few and so vague.

Obamacare initially looked like a promising program to get more poor people insured, but it turned out to be more beauacracy and a sneaky way to give the insurance companies MORE customers by FORCING YOU BY LAW to do business with them and buy their insurance!

First he took the PUBLIC OPTION away....then he turned around and MANDATED it!
 

[richardmurray]

@Pioneer1 effectiveness is another aspect whose definition is not set in stone in the black community, it is complex again. 

I know you have your definitions as do I, as do all,  but the black community isn't about one person's views and to that end, while many black people have  definitions akin to yours many black people don't. So the question is how will you + black people who share your views be able to go on and not interfere to black people who don't? 

 

On a historical note, the affordable care act is nancy pelosi's not obama's. IT is public record that obama oppossed the bill, but nancy pelosi supported it as it would help women with children who have deadly diseases finally get healthcare/insurance, as the industry banned them beforehand. Obama made a campaign promise that he would do whatever the legislature put forward and pelosi leading the donkey led senate+ house put all the cards in the affordable care act. They lost the senate and everything else was inevitable. 

 

@Chevdove a black party of governance is needed in the usa for the black community, but it has one key problem in modernity. A problem that is quite strong. Gardless the reasons why <the reasons are from two sources: the black community + white community> , the black community in the usa  at the year 2023 is the farthest from being ready for such an institution. The black community in the usa circa 1865 or before was 100% ready, but from then to now, various things, positive + negative, have molded the black community in the usa into a most complicated form. And communal complexity is the enemy to a functional party in general but definitely of governance. Ala why most people across all demographics in the usa, poll disconnected to either of the major parties. No two communities have the same needs and usually the parts in a single community don't have the exact same needs, but in the usa, you have a trillion communities each with a trillion parts and no policy can be made that will not cause harm to one group or another. 

 

[Pioneer1]

richardmurray

Also, let us not confused Black LEADERS with Black SPOKES PERSONS.

A Black LEADER actually LEADS.
They can make a call and others will heed their call and follow them and go where they say go and do what they say do.
That's a leader.
Minister Farrakhan is one.
Tariq Nasheed is one.
We do have LEADERS to various degrees.

Then you have Black SPOKES PERSONS.
They are basically people who can sound give and give good speeches and articulate the issues, but don't have a lot of command over the behavior of the people.
Jesse Jackson is one.
Al Sharpton is another.
Kanye West is another.
Larry Elder is another.
Just good at talking and articulating the problem but don't have enough command over the people to actually get them to do something.