Pioneer1

Troy Actually, no it wasn't. Any AfroAmerican who has lived, worked, or spent any reasonable about of time around Italian Americans can't help but to notice some of the behavioral and even physical similarities between them and us more so than other White Americans.

Cynique Sorry you checked out, But you're still welcomed to read my response to your post to me as well as further commentary. Feel free to hop back in, lol. "If an atheist and a believer act in the exact same way, Pioneer, then it's ridiculous for a person speaking the English language to say that what the believer is doing is moral and what the non-believer is doing is not moral because believers have a monolpoly on being called a certain word that describes how people act. And it's not how an atheist thinks of himself, it's how an objective observer would categorize him. A visitor from Mars wouldn't be able to tell the difference between two people acting just alike. If an atheist and a believer both reject molesting a child then what would an English speaking person call the atheist?" Not actually. An atheist and believer may behave in the same way but they're doing it for different reasons and THAT in and of itself is one of the key differences between morals and ethics. Let me illustrate my point using theft leaving legal punishment out of the picture: If a true atheist sees something that they desparately want but refuse to steal it, they're doing it for ethical reasons. They don't want to wear the badge of shame that comes from being known as a thief in the community. However if a believer sees something that they desparately want but refuses to steal it, they're doing it for moral reasons because they see it as inherantly wrong because God said it was, plus they fear some sort of divine punishment or displeasure by God. Now this is the reason why it matters........ The reason the believer has for not stealing (moral)is actually more effective and ideal than the atheist's reason (ethical) because since it doesn't depend on pleasing other human beings it will withstand any peer pressure that may from a break down in social order. It's a reason that LASTS, regardless as to what is going on in the environment. In an atheistic society, take away the police and social order and you have a madhouse. "I kinda believe that earthlings all came from the same source and are all a part of a universal intelligence. And that we don't know what we know" Omnipotent Force/Universal intelligence/Original source = Supreme Being Lol, are you sure you don't really believe in God and just don't know it?.....yet. Delano I guess mathematics can be considered a language, but I see it more as a measurement or comparison of subjects and objects. Language is just a means of communicating ideas from one human being to another. If you can do this telepathically you don't need language....but you'll still need a form of mathematics/measurement.

Nah'sun Interesting take on the word "Django". Where did you get that definition from? I was actually trying to find out what the word meant because despite the "o" on the end, it sounds like something of Arabic origin. I couldn't find the word in any Arabic or Spanish dictionaries.

Indeed. Southern Italians have strong African and Arab ancestry. This is one of the reasons why there was constant rivalry between them and Northern Italians. They can't escape this truth, they know it deep down inside no matter how much many Italians may try to deny this. The way they dress, sing, dance, love gold, ect......tells on them. I've met many Italians who actually embrace the fact that they have Black ancestry and see it as a bragging rite because they think it makes them tough and hard.

Troy Lol, that was a pretty convincing video on the atheism among scientists. Although they start off pretty definate about not believing, when they explain thier "lack" of belief in detail it seems to go back to not believing in the Judeo/Christian idea of who God is. Like most people in the West in general, most Western scientists start off believing in a false concept of God and when they realized that they were deceived.....many of them abandoned theism all together rather than doing dilligent research on the truth of the matter. Should a woman never marry or trust a man again simple because her first husband cheated on her? Cynique "I think we need to make a distinction between a Supreme Being and an Omnipotent, Infinite Force. Religion, which is an invention of man, has crafted "god" in the image of a person, making "him" either a petty, vindictive old man who doles out punishment, or a Mystical prophet who spouts riddles. And any one who judges people by the bible or other religious scriptures written by men is not qualified to be objectve." If you reject the idea that God is some angry old man riding on clouds, so do I. Do you believe there is an Omnipotent Force in this Universe/Reality ? "To say that an atheist can't be "moral" is simply an opinion. In the big picture, there is no such thing as good or evil or moral or immoral or Satan or God. There is simply matter and anti-matter, negative and positive, darkness and light. The "good" and "bad" labels are constructs of civilization. But, as is proven everyday, these opposing energies co-exist." If you hold the position of not believing there is a God then you just helped to prove my point that atheists can't really have morality. You said in the big picture this IS NO good or evil or moral or immoral. This believe that many if not most atheists hold illustrates my point that athiests can have ethics (man made rules governing human behavior in given communities) but they can't really have morals because they don't believe in ultimate good or evil. Troy/Delano I believe there are ACTUAL truths and UNIVERSAL truths. Actual meaning they are true now but may change with time. A good is example of the difference is language and mathematics..... Language is based in actual truths as the meaning of words often change with time. Mathematics is based on universal truths, 2+2 will always equal 4.

Cynique I agree that a racist in a position of power like a mayor or governor has the ability to do much more harm than some redneck sitting up in his trailer spitting and cussing at his television everytime Jesse Jackson comes on. However racism is also a BELIEF, not just a practice. If a Klansman got into an accident and was paralyzed to the point he couldn't move or speak, would he no longer be racist because he no longer had the power to move or influence others to do his bidding? I see xenophobia as a passive form of racim. But it still falls under the racist catagory. Whether you're targetting people based on race or avoiding people based on racism, it's still based on race.....which is racism.

Cynique "Come on now, Pioneer. Do you really think the West has any influence on Third World countries who hate us? Furthermore, the Middle East and the Eastern countries are very saturated with their religions." The West still has tremendous influence on the Third and Developing world. Actully the West have even MORE influence on the world today than 40 years ago because the Soviet Union is no longer around as competition. Regardless as to how the citizens (or resident rather....because citizens actually have some say~so) of these nations feel about the United States, the LEADERS are in control of the economies and militaries and it's them who the U.S. does business with. "And just because people are Atheists doesn't mean they have no ethics or morals. In addition to being a well organized segment of society and, unlike to a lot of religious hypocrites, Atheists are quite often people who have high morals and lofty principles and who love their fellow man and choose to lead the kind of lives that will benefit the common good." I agree that atheists can have "ethics".....a means of determining what's acceptable and not acceptable in a given community. But I don't believe that a true atheist can have "morals".....which is based on ultimate determinations of what is right and wrong. How can man himself decide what is universally "right"? His knowledge is too limited, subjective, and versatile to determine universal good/evil which is what morals are in their truest sense. "Also, many scientists can reconcile their belief in a Supreme Being with their scientific positions. It's not that hard to accept that an eternal, omnipotent, omnisicent force is the Master of the Universe and therefore, among all other things, is the origin of what we call science." Exactly! That supports my point that most scientists DO believe in God. But the rest of my point is that there seems to be some sort of agenda in Western Academia to promote the idea that education and enlightenment leads to atheism. Delano "Pioneer - There was a survey of scientists 80% and they were atheist They thought the 20% that weren't atheist weren't rational. So even though the assume they see rational they aren't. The only rational position id to be an atheist." I found out a long time ago that when it comes to educated Whites...... There is often a LARGE gulf between what they say in public and what they REALLY believe. The same White female teacher who will go everyday to an innercity school and teach Black girls to be independant, that marriage isn't necessary for a healthy relationship, and to not waste thier lives trying to please a man. Will drive back home way out in the woods somewhere and try to be the perfect wife for HER husban and raise her daughters to be the same. I know many scientists are THOUGHT to be atheist. Indeed, many want this image to be put out. But how many actually SAY outright that they don't believe in any type of god?

When I look at old pictures, old footage, and read about the first European immigrants who came to the United States whether they were Jews, Italians, or Germans. I look at how they dressed, what they ate, and how they behaved..... It reminds me so much of AfroAmericans and how we used to dress, eat, and behave. I've had more than one European from places like France and Italy tell me that in terms of style and behavior Black Americans were actually more like Europeans that White Americans.

If you want my honest opinion..... I think MOST scientists, just like most professors and other members of Academia actually DO believe in God. If you investigate, you'll find that most scientists, professors, policy makers, and others who hold prominent positions in this society are MARRIED. Why do such educated men and women who believe that humans are essentially animals and know that man is polygamous would even take such a self-imposed restrictive institution like marriage seriously, let alone engage in it? Not only are they married but they tend to talk in terms of morality, decency, attend religious ceremonies, maintain ancient traditions, take "oaths" in court....and engage in other behavior that would be considered strange for people who don't believe in a higher power. One of the biggest tricks the West has played on the rest of the world is tricking them into not believing in a Supreme Being. A Supreme Being that THEY clearly believe in.

Cynique "Can we agree that racism is about empowerment, - about being able to enforce and instituionalize color discrimination, something that children don't have the authority to do." I'm not the type who believes Black people can't be racist because of a lack of power. I believe racism is simply assigning a value (especially a negative value) to a particular race, plain and simple. I believe you can be racist whether you have the power to act on your beliefs or not. All Let me throw something else in the mix......... I believe RACISM is learn behavior, however I believe HATRED is not. Hatred....like love, happiness, and jealousy.....is an emotion. And emotions are natural. There are those who are born without the ability to hate, like those who are born without the ability to love...or born without the ability to see....or walk. But these are abnormal DIS-abilities. Hatred is a normal human emotion not necessarily tied to racism. Indeed, there are some racists who don't even hate the targeted race.

Troy "You may be correct Pioneer. But I choose to believe he had a plan and advancing in politics was his goal, Wright was a stepping stone." Absolurely! That's what I was saying; he basically joined the church to get some "street cred" in the community. "Obama's current alignment with Rev Sharpton is a little more curious." Are you sure it's not more like Reverend Sharpton aligning himself with Obama? Seems to me that ever since he's gotten that talk show on MSNBC, he's become less "pro Black" and more "pro Democrat" aligning himself with any and almost every issue on the Democrat platform. For the past few years he's been advocating gay rights and gay marriage, something that the majority of the Black church is against and something he NEVER spoke on in the past.

There are 2 types of science. Science in the classical use of the term. Science in the contempary use of the term. Classical science is the collection of verifiable facts and other forms of information based on observation and experimentation. It's not beholding to any particular institution or tied to any agenda. Contemporary science...especially in the West....seems to be a religion or fraternity. It is established. It gets it's orders from the top down. It resists and sometimes even persecutes change and alternative thinking. It has an agenda. A good example of the difference is the Theory of Evolution. Contemporary science says that evolotion is a fact, there is no room for argument. Classical science says evolution is only one of many theories...some weak some strong....but since man wasn't around to observe or record his origins we can't call it absolute fact.

It seems to me that Obama is much much too left-brained or "intellectual" to be a devout member of the typical inner-city Black church with all it's singing, clapping, and strong emotionalsim. I know I didn't care too much for it when I was a Christian. I prefered ministers along the line of Fredrick KC Price and others who TEACH more than PREACH. While I don't doubt that he's a Christian, I think he just affiliated himself with that particular church early in his political career to endear himself with the people of the community while trying to help the unemployed factory workers in the area. He knew THEIR minds were in the church, so he went into the church to reach them.

Racism is learned, race conciousness is not....it's natural. Any child with eyesight can readily see the difference between what we call a Black person and White person. I knew Bruce Lee was different from the other people in my neighborhood when I was just 3 years old! But in order to assign value and/or negative characteristics to a particular color....which is racism.....has to be learned either through indoctrination or experience.

Damn.....lol. So should the people just save their money? It would seem that any movie with James Brown's "Big Payback" in the trailer would be a blockbuster!

Troy "Well Pioneer, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but haven't you noticed that gender differences have been greatly neutralized over the last half century. People are fighting for same sex marriages, men's clothing is becoming increasing feminized, girls fighting to be included on football -- with the men. Women literally standing up and saying they don't men men in their lives, to help them raise children, they can be just as good a father as any man. I could go on but you see my point. There are distinct differences between men and women -- indeed ignoring these inherent differences is what has contributed to the destruction of the family..." I couldn't agree with you more on how this has contributed to the destruction of the family, especially the Black family. It appears that the same social engineers (mostly White college professors and media executives) who are promoting "gender neutrality" among the masses don't seem to practice it in thier own homes. The same White woman teaching girls in an innercity highschool that they don't need men in thier lives and that they should learn to be independant is usually married herself and would probably kick her own daughter out of the house if she came home and announced that she was a lesbian. I've long suspected that much of this is a trick to set Black men and women against eachother and destroy the Black family. However, when it comes to sex.....as well as race....we're dealing with biology and genetics, not necessarily sociology and human behavior in a given environment. Just like a man is still a man (facial hair, testicles, penis) regardless as to whether or not he wears a miniskirt, lipstick and listens to Barbara Striesand...... A Black person is still Black (dark skin, kinky hair, high butt, ect....) regardless as to what he wears, how he talks, or even what he wants to CALL himself. "We have this laws called "Bias Crimes" where, in essence, if the perpetrator of a crime was motivated by some prejudice the penalties would be far worse. This makes no sense to me." While it makes sense to me.....I actually don't agree with it. I think crimes should be punished accordingly but I don't necessarily agree with giving someone "extra" punishment because of thier personal beliefs because it involves trying to figure out what's in someone elses head. "If a Black man yells, "nigger I'ma beat the shit out of you!" then proceeds to pummel a black man -- he gets a slap on the wrist. If white boy does exactly the same thing he gets thrown under the jail and his picture on the cover of the local tabloid. Suppose a mulatto guy does the same thing -- what do we do with him? Ultimately if people stop thinking in terms of race, there can't be racists, right. And isn't that our goal? " The word "if" is the key factor in the statement you just made. "If" is often a symptom of wishful thinking....lol. My old man used to say that "if" a bullfrog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass everytime he took a leap, lol. If racism didn't exist, things would be much better.....but it does, so those who have been the historical victims of it must learn how to defend themselves against it. Most problem solvers will tell you the very first step in solving a problem is identifying it. As I've been saying since I started this thread, if racism is a problem and we took away racial classification then how would one be able to identify the problem or racism? You ignoring racism isn't going to keep a racist from discriminating against you any more than refusing to acknowledge death will keep one from dying. "Unless you believe racism is natural" Well personally, I believe racial distincition....or recognizing that there are different races, is natural. I don't believe that racism itself necessarily is though. BTW Troy and Cynique In regards to the government being racist because they use racial classification...... There is a difference between being RACIST and being RACE CONSCIOUS. One is practicing discrimination and assigning value based on race; the other is simply being aware that there are different races while adding no values or judgements to any specific racial group.

Delano "Pioneer - we may be tuning into some of the same frequencies. perhaps the personal mind is one cabinet in universal warehouse. i am in agreement with what you say about the mind. How can the intangible be connected to the tangible." I've been reading a lot about Near Death Experiences and Out of Body Experiences these past few years. It's really educated me on a lot of things with regards to the mind and various powers in the body. Cynique . "I'd say the mind works through the brain. The brain is tangible, but the mind is spiritual. It's like body and soul. Inspiration is spontaneous; it just comes to you from The Source of all thought. An idea is the fruition of inspiration." I'm beginning to believe that the brain is more of an "antenna" to receive and broadcast the works of the mind and beyond. Troy If your basic premise is that people people's beliefs should be grounded in reality, I hear exactly what you're saying and agree. But I've learned there's more to "reality" that just what we see on a daily basis. I've had personal experiences myself that have confirmed this. We know that certain animals like birds see a greater range of colors and other sights than humans. We know other animals have a much much better sense of smell and can smell things that humans don't even know exist. I was looking at a report today on CNN about animals who can detect cancer and other diseases even before they can be seen on an MRI! The spectrum of REAL-ity or what is "real" is much much greater than most humans REAL-ize.

A lot of White liberals thought he'd be different too. I was living on the West Coast when he was campaigning and got elected back in 2008 and a lot of Whites in places like Seattle and Portland were floating and glowing around that time. They were declaring an END TO THE REAGAN ERA. They had such high hopes because they were expecting that a Black man would really "sock it to the system". People talk about the attempts of Republicans to use Reverend Jeremiah Wright to smear Obama and make him look like a radical racist. But I can assure you and everyone reading that in the Pacific Northwest it had the OPPOSITE EFFECT. White people were blaring the speeches of Rev. Wright all out of thier apartments, studios, and coffee shops....lol. They couldn't get enough of him and his firey sermons. It's like they hadn't been exposed to the Black church before. It told them if you like THAT....then come on back home with me to Detroit and I'll take you to some preachers that would make Jeremiah Wright look like Clarence Thomas, lol.

Delano Not to change the subject, but when you mentioned that you were trying to explain to your biracial children why Black people were mistreated because of thier color and they couldn't understand it....this is one of the reasons I differenciate "Black peple" from "AfroAmericans". Originally, one of the reasons Black people were discriminated against was because of HOW THEY LOOKED. The dark skin, kinky hair, and thick nose and lips of West Africans were seens as badges of dishonor and ugliness in American society for over 2 centuries. When people look at Barak Obama and say they can't understand why so many wouldn't want a "Black" president, they aren't understanding that the typical Black man doesn't look like him (although I must say the President has pretty kinky hair for a mixed person, lol) Troy "If we were still in African who know if a Jazz, or the Blues, or Rap would have emerged at all." You know what, I often think along the same lines when it comes to different things. What if our people had stayed in Africa and had never been enslaved...how would the world be? With regard to music, I suspect that there probably wouldn't be any Jazz like we know it today because most African socities tend to be very traditional and you know those type of societies DON'T LIKE CHANGE. They continue the same traditions for thousands of years. Asian and Native American culutres were the same way. They favored tradition and the ways of the ancestors above that which is commonly called "advancement". Often times, that which is "new" is unwelomed and persecuted.....driven out. If I'm not mistaken though, I thought Jazz itself was founded by New York Jews with their clarinets and other wind instruments.

Delano The akashic records..... Actually this was what I was thinking about when I started this thread questioning where some artists get thier inspiration from. I also believe that there is a difference between ideas and inspiration. It is my belief that ideas are manufactured as a result of mental processes where as inspiration is downloaded from an outside source. Troy The brain is a very powerful "machine". There are many many things we still don't know about it. Man hasn't discovered how to unlock the vast majority of it's chambers to unleash his full potential yet. However I am one who believes that the MIND is still magnificently superior even to the brain and not necessarily connected to it.

I hear what you're saying. Aggression is aggression regardless of whatever name they commit it in or what excuse they give. However, if we don't get to the bottom of WHY someone harmed you, then they or others who think like them may harm you again. Correct? The most qualified detectives and investigators always establish a PROFILE of thier suspects and thier behaivor in order to identify and study them and eventually apprehend them. Now in your response to my fired Asians example, no it's not a funcion of race, but race is a significant and indispensable factor in proving the REASON they were fired. Thus giving the victims a weapon to fight back and defend themselves from further abuse. If you took racial classification out of the equation then the only thing they'd be able to prove was that they were fired (and might not even be able to do that if they didn't get a pink slip), but they couldn't explain why. Which means they and other Asians could keep getting fired without ever being able to prove why and possibly put an end to it. A good analogy to my argument about the importance of racial classification would be the gender/sex classification. Now we know there's a difference between those whom we call males and those whom we call females. Thus we classify and lable them MALES and FEMALES. Just like a difference is made based on race, a difference is also made based on gender/sex. Now suppose we were to take this distinction away and say there is no such thing as gender/sex. Both are the same, no distinction. Can you imagine the billions of dollars and centuries of time that science, medicine, and other institutions would waste trying to figure out why nearly half of the population just couldn't get pregnant! Add GENDER/SEX and it makes sense.....problem solved. Take it away.....and you got a lot of angry women who can't figure out why their clitorises stopped growing! Add racial classification, and you can understand why Europeans went around the globe making slaves of Africans, Indians, and Chinese. They saw themselves as one race, and Africans, Indians, and Chinese as outside of their race. Take it away, and the only thing you have is.......people with big boats and green eyes seem to have such luck! Taking away racial classification won't hurt racists one bit, it'll only hurt the VICTIMS of racism who will no longer be able to explain their pain.

Lol @ "Cablasain" When I first heard that Tiger used that term, I actually thought he was talking about one of his puppies. "Oh, meet Turbo.....he's a Collier and Cablasian mix....got him from the shelter when he was only 6 weeks". You're right that injustice isn't a function of race, but quite often it's definitely a FACTOR. And racial classifcation in terms of....say.....a discrimination law suit....would be a tool used to describe how or why a person was harmed. No term for race, no way to prove racial discrimination. So theoretically a person could fire all the qualified Asian people on a given job because of their race but they would have no grounds to sue because that which they got fired for doesn't legally exist. Trust me mah brutha..... Even if all classifications of race were removed from goverment and public vocabulary, White men will still know who THEY are, know who YOU are, and find a way to keep the distinction. Actually, it's not just White men but men in general tend to separate people into groups. All men do it to a certain extent. While women tend to incorporate and include, it's the nature of a man's mind to divide and compartmentalize as a way to determine who belongs where in society. Establish status and hierarchy. And also determine who is the potential enemy.

Lol...... You know what bro, I've been saying what you said about property taxes for almost as long as what I said about mortgages I was actually about to post that and forgot about I OWN my car. I don't have to keep paying property taxes on it to keep it. I OWN my clothes and furniture. I don't have to keep paying taxes on it. How do you pay off a house and still have it taken away from you because you couldn't keep paying for the right to live in something you've already bought? Some argue that it's not the house you're paying taxes on but the land the house sits on. But I haven't heard of any cases where people who couldn't keep up the taxes being able to dig up their house and take it with them leaving the earthworms wiggling in the ground, lol. It's called a MORT-gage for a reason. It was originally designed so that a person would be paying on it for so long that they'd die (mort) before it could be paid off, thus the debt would pass on to the surviving family. Seems to me if a person takes out a mortgage on a home and pays 50% of it off before having to foreclose.....alteast half of the house still belongs to them! But no, the bank actually takes the ENTIRE house back and re-sells it to someone else. The bank can take a $100,000 home and make about $300,000 or $400,000 by mortgaging and foreclosing over and over again to high risk families whom they KNOW won't be able to pay it off.

Now this is where I sound ultra conservative.... I'd say this shooting, like the shootings in Colorado and Oregon are "exceptions" in otherwise peaceful suburban environments where law, order, and civility tend to be the rule. As much as they seem to be occuring lately, they're still relatively isolated as compared to the warfare seen in some of the ghettoes of America where children seem to be shot and killed on a daily basis. People are scratching their heads trying to figure out what made this seemingly peaceful quiet kid snap. They're saying most likely it's a mixture of mental illness and the availability of guns. But in the ghetto, people KNOW why so many children are getting killed (lawlessness, declining morals, broken families, lack of decent employment) but few....including the police...seem to be concerned enough to impliment the massive changes needed to resolve the problem. If anyone doubts what I'm saying.....find an average group of Black men and try to sit them down for 5 minutes to talk about the problems afflicting the "hood" and what we can do about it. Wealthy White people would re-write the constitutions or dismantle the government all together if their children were getting slaughtered across the nation by gang and drug violence the way so many Black and Brown children have been. It's sad to say, but I've came to the conclusion that many of our people simply don't care as much. Too many are so concerned about their own personal situations that they can't look beyond their noses to see the greater problems afflicting the community as a whole.

Quenton is just filling a void that was left open by Black directors. You have talented Black directors like Spike Lee and Tyler Perry who have the ability to produce docu-tainment as good as Tarantino or Spielberg but they figure that Black people won't go to see it in huge numbers so they stick to the 'hood or drag queen movies. Keep in mind when I talk about seeing dark skinned Black people loving eachother, I'm not just talking about love in the sense of "amore" but love in the sense of "eros". You rarely see two Black people engaged in powerful but positive sexual activity in the movies or on television anymore. Not like the days of Shaft or Black Ceasar where you saw dark skinned sistaz with kinky hair naked and being loved. I'm not talking about some rap video where a woman dresses like a prostitute and demeans herself with a bottle of champaign and STILL doesn't show any nudity. I'm talking artistically beautiful but still erotic sexuality. Where are the Pam Griers or Gloria Hendrys of today? Black women who are willing to get naked and show their brown bodies on the screen unashamed? There was a time in the 80s and 90s where White actresses refused to do nude scenes because they thought it was demeaning. But that didn't last long, now every one of them are showing thier breasts and many are showing their pubic hair. Every one of them are putting pictures of their naked selves out on the internet to get publicity. The entire world gets to see the beauty and sensuality of the White woman....what about the Black, Yellow, or Brown woman? And what about the Black men? How many Black men are being called "hot" or make it to the list of 10 or 25 "hottest hunks in Hollywood" now? I've been warning Black men for years that while they're getting fat and sloppy thinking that there'd never be a time when a sista would look past them for a "white boy".....the "white boy" is at the gymn. Some may giggle or shake their heads at what I'm saying but there's strong psychology in seeing people who LOOK LIKE YOU engaged in positive sexual activity on television or in the movies because it re-enforces the fact that you are a human being who needs love and can be loved. That you too can be a symbol of attraction. Our people both male and female need to KNOW that their bodies are attractive and lovable, not just objects of ridicule or exploitation.