Pioneer1

frankster Thank you for reminding me of our earlier interaction. Unfortunately however, for purposes of clarity I have to again repeat my question: Do you believe The Divine has ever communicated something false to human beings? I'm not asking you CAN The Divine do it, I'm asking you HAS The Divine ever done it....to your knowledge? I'd appreciate a clear and concise affirmative or negative to the above in your next response. I didn't say that to dismiss all the other information the Bible offers us. I'm simply saying that what "matters" is what's relevant. We're having a conversation about whether the Bible contains falsehood so things that are "irrelevant" to that subject doesn't matter as much TO that subject of the discussion, that's all. I agree with the former and respect the latter! It's good enough for someone who isn't as concerned about the story actually being TRUE as they are of some "message" it may contain for the reader. But I believe in Truth. That is the first litmus test any information I receive must pass before I accept it. So when we read 1 Corinthians 14:33 "For God is not the author of confusion" According to THAT scripture, confusion didn't come from God. So is it true that "all" things were made by Him? That's not accurate. The Bible hasn't been around several thousand years. Infact, the Bible (any Bible you choose from) hasn't even been around 2000 years. ALL truths withstand the test of time. Truth is truth no matter what it is found and it doesn't change unless the circumstances it refers to changes. Understood. Now...... Can you show me the scripture in the Bible that states this was the case? ....that Joseph's father Jacob passed away and Heli took over? I don't remember reading it and I'd like to know where you got it from. That's your OPINION of it's purpose. Others believe and insist it has another purpose. Constantine and the Roman Empire used the Bible to unite the wild warring tribes of Europe Slave masters used the Bible as a purpose to keep the slaves docile while being oppressed. Differerent people had different purposes for the Bible. Nice try but...I said THIS SCRIPTURE....not the New Testament. I made it clear earlier in our conversation that the OLD TESTAMENT didn't name Gabriel and Michael as angels. That concept came LATER after the Jews were sent to Jerusalem when the New Testament starts. Much of the theology of modern Judaism and even much of Christianity came from period when the Jews were in Babylon and learn a lot from the Persians who were Zoroastrians. You should have given it a rest a few posts back, lol. The definition of the name "Israel" is pretty clear. That aspect of the argument has a positive period behind it.

Chev But perhaps one day, I hope that our future generation will benefit from it and no matter how this kind of information goes 'unread', I strongly believe that it will resurface one day. But I'd like YOU to get the credit for it instead of someone else who discovers it and brings it back into general circulation as "their own" ideas and perspectives. So much in the world was really invented by Black people but the credit was stolen by White people who like ProfD says "codify" it after stealing it so they can legally claim YOUR discoveries as their own. Del It is also important to set the rules of engagement: no ad hominem attacks; agreed upon definitions of key terms of subject being discussed; rational arguments especially for highly subjective topics. I agree. But I think there should be a clear separation between a more liberal free-for-all forum such as this one and one where the standards are higher and the rules are more strict. First of all those rules should be clearly posted for everyone who would like to engage in that forum to read and abide by.

I think the only reason they don't openly identify with the Nazi party is because it may be illegal. They are obviously a right-wing fascist party and as close to the Nazi party as you can legally get in the United States.

You may be joking, but actually you don't know how close to the truth you are! Moses knew the savages couldn't follow ALL of the laws that make a human being complete because THEY were incomplete themselves. They weren't the ORIGINAL man....just a "replica" or de-colorized copy of him. So he had to be held to a lower standard. You can't go up to a savage who's been born and raised eating raw meat all of his life and get him to eat only fruits and berries. You have to give him laws and rules that GRADUALLY modify his diet generation by generation until his kind becomes more refined. So you start by telling him that if he's gonna eat the meat, atleast don't eat ROTTEN meat. "Well, it's already dead....so I ain't gotta kill it. Geez what's the problem????" And if he's gonna eat the meat, atleast cook it to kill the germs inside of it. Shave your beard, trim your nails, wash that funk off you atleat once a week (Saturday night or early Sunday morning...lol). You have to GRADUALLY civilize the savage over a period of time. Look at the laws in the book of Leviticus in the Bible ( @frankster ) and you'll see a set of laws designed to turn a savage people into a civilized society.

ProfD Remember Sisqo of Dru Hill? "Sleepin' in my bed Messin' with my head Takin' my plaaaaaace..." We thought the nigga was just weird back in the 90s, but he'd fit right in today!

Marty1960 I have a few questions for you....... First of all you said you're "old" and a victim of age discrimination. How old are you? Is 1960 the year you were born? Also, are there other Black people at your job? I'm not talking about janitors or the security guard at the front desk but in professional positions?

frankster ?? Not sure what that was in response to however allow me to ask you the question again: Do you believe The Divine has ever communicated something false to human beings? It doesn't matter who named her that, the point is it's in the Bible and it's FALSE. It's false information. Maybe YOU have to wrestle with them, but I've overcome that struggle a LONG time ago when I finally accepted that the Bible was NOT a Divine book but a script written from the minds of men. Just because The Divine is Present, doesn't mean They brought everything into existence. Furthermore, atoms are the building blocks (that we know so far) of much of the PHYSICAL REALITY. But there is a much much more vast SPIRITUAL REALITY and we have no clue as to what That is made of. You don't even know what material your own thoughts are made of. And just like the Bible, they too are books that often consist of both true and false information. But unlike the Bible, most of us accept that they often contain false and incorrect information. Naaaw buddy, don't put that on "The Divine"...lol. The Divine didn't write the 4 Gospels. They were written by MEN and those men were given the identities of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Now in Matthew 1:16 it says: …and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ. But in Luke 3:23 it says: Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, One so-called "inspired" scripture claims Jacob was the father of Joseph and another so-called "inspired" scripture claims he was Heli. Who is right, because BOTH of them can't be? That's not an "opinion" or "perspective" but a straight up contradiction. Yeah, and that was it's purpose...to help unite Europeans. Not save souls or bring peace and justice to the world; but further civilize and empower White folks through a sense of unity. Ok, and WHERE is Gabriel mentioned as an Angel in this scripture???? There is no evidence that "Israel" has more than one meaning. All of the evidence we have point to it only having ONE meaning. Your explanations of what the word "really" means on an "esoteric level" is mere fanciful thinking and speculation.

@Chevdove Yes, most of the 'Black' doctors that I've been too are either African or from India. There's a reason for that. Africans and Indians tend to be more academics-oriented than AfroAmericans because they have more trust in the Western system. You talk to them about racism and it's like talking a foreign language. They squint their eyes and scratch their heads trying to figure out what you mean..lol. Compared with AfroAmericans...Africans (atleast the ones who come to the West) tend to be far more pursuant of Western education and the heights of our career fields. Troy If some of the 42 Negative Confessions or Laws of Ma'at sound familiar and like the 10 Commandments of the Bible, there's a good reasons for that! When Moses went up into the mountains of the Caucasus to civilize that savage Caucasian...he took many of the Egyptian books of knowledge and wisdom with him and took bits of information from those books to impart to the wild Caucasians to give them civility and humanity.

Whether it's a strike or a boycott, instead of waiting for everyone to get onboard....sometimes it's best to just focus on a handful of "true" riders who will be down to support you and get things going. I've been saying quite vocally over the past few years that we should focus less on collective Black unity and more on uniting intelligent and righteous Black people; Black people with like minds who have the same interests. Just focus on THAT group and let the zombies roam the streets.

Cynique Change is change. Young people are receptive to what's new and different. Everybody is not stagnant, stuck in a time warp. And stupid is stupid. ...whether you were BORN that way or ended up that way. Young people are receptive to what's new because most of the time they DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER. Most youth don't have the wisdom and maturity that comes from a developed and stable mind so they tend to be more easily influenced and manipulated by things an older person has seen before and knows better than to fall for. i am NOT of the same generation as Millennials or Gen Zers. We have very little in common because of the huge age gap. I'm gonna say it again because you are what you are; whether you were BORN that way or ENDED UP that way, lol. As long as we're living, we are in OUR generation! ANY GENERATION YOU'RE LIVING IN IS YOUR GENERATION If you are alive and your faculties work you see what young people are seeing, you taste what they taste, you hear what they hear. Your PERSPECTIVE may be different but you are in the same society on the same planet. You're using the Western concept of generation and I'm using a universal concept.

frankster The Divine includes MANY Beings including The SUPREME BEING. The SUPREME BEING has no limit, but as for many of the other Beings...I can't say if They do or don't. However let me ask you directly, do you believe The Divine has ever communicated something false to human beings? You "think"....key word. You don't KNOW that they are true and only have to be proven as such, you just BELIEVE they are. I'd even dare to say you HOPE they are. But at least you admit that they haven't found proof. This means your mind is open for correction. I can't think of "the most" glaring fabrication at the moment however there are so many in the Bible, where do I start? Let's see, how about Genesis 3:20 The scripture says Adam's wife was named EVE because she was the mother of all living? FALSE There were animals and vegetation alive before she was made so she couldn't have been the "mother of all living". PERIOD. Well, that's limiting the definition but I understand. The telephone, carpet, swords, piano, ect... It's not very hard to come up with examples. No sir. Neither I nor you are mentioned in that Bible. Do you believe King James and the men he authorized to write the current KJV Bible was "divinely inspired"???? What about the Greeks and Romans who wrote the script the European Bible was based on???? Were Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John inspired by the same "Source" even though they offered contradicting accounts??? And IF (because I don't believe it) the Divine trusted men who are frail and erroneous to write a book for Them and it ends up full of lies, what would that tell you about Their judgement for entrusting such men with something so important to humanity? OFCOURSE Paul struggled with clarity, he was an AGENT of the Roman Empire. That's why he admitted that he changes himself for his audience: In 1st Corinthians Chapter 9 19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. No. I'm saying which ever man/men wrote this fabrication, lied. That's the NEW TESTAMENT explanation. In the Old Testament you don't find Angels with an "el" ending their name. Infact, if my memory serves me correctly the Angels aren't named in the Old Testament. And before you go there..... The Old Testament does NOT refer to Gabriel or Michael as "angels" This is found no where in the Bible. It's philosophical pondering. More philosophical ponderings to explain the unexplainable or contradictory scriptures. Anything but admit they simply are wrong and can't be "righted". LOL....sir please stop. Is-ra-el Means HE FIGHTS/STRUGGLES (with) EL/GOD That's the literal meaning. No need to spin it or "philosophize" it to fit some weird belief system not grounded in scripture or linguistics.

Cynique Is it that their minds and lifestyles are "changing" or are they being "CHANGED" by maniplation? THIS is my generation, and yours too. As long as we're living, we are in "our" generation. @Mel Hopkins I've heard more and more stories like this over the past 10 years and past 2 years in particular. I'm convinced that most of it comes from our current proximity to White folks. Just living around them, engaging in their diet and behaviors, watching so much of their entertainment. When we were more segregated we had our own problems but you didn't hear about crap like this coming from OUR community. When you heard or read about it, you could almost count on it being a problem between White folks. Not today though. ....OH, and that fake weed so many of them are smoking today is making things even worse. I would think that the murder and overall domestic violence rate against women would be MUCH higher among Latinos than among AfroAmericans. Mexican men often routinely beat and even murder their women. I know this from years of living on the Westcoast. They dog their women out. Troy Absolutely Too many Black businesses like to cut corners and do business in a "tacky" sort of way that lowers the quality of their product or service. While we can blame this on a lack of funding in many cases, in many others it's simply shoddy inventory and shitty customer service. ProfD Correct. Just Charisma. But a GOOD leader would be competent and knowledgeable. @Chevdove "Gosh"???? Come on now sis...lol.

This is one of the reasons the Honorable Elijah Muhammad told us over and over again to DO FOR SELF. He said DO FOR SELF....or suffer the consequences. In other words........ You stop sitting around waiting on White folks to give you things and do things for you and learn how to DO THEM YOURSELF...or end up dealing with the racism and humiliation that often comes along with working for or with White people.

Not when it comes to MY posts....lol. Especially with regard to religion. Chev Absolutely. However some of these niggaz are just plain stupid. No matter what country they were born in they'd be screwed up. Do you think THESE clowns would really turn out any different if they were raised in Uzbekistan? Michael Montvert I hear what you're saying, but atleast OUR people wouldn't have had to endure 500 (and counting) years of it. White people weren't slaves in the colonies btw.... They were indentured servants who weren't "born" into it generation after generation. They also were offered more opportunities to buy their freedom than Black actual slaves. Absolutely! Lol.... Take it easy man, it's gonna be alright. Ofcourse! The Bloods and Crips were formed and are maintained to harm BLACK PEOPLE...no other group. That's what they are allowed to exist for; both on the streets and in the prisons. When the gangstaz of South Central talk about "breaking a fool off proper" they aren't talking about White folks but their own people.

Troy Nope, didn't get anything from you. Got something from some woman calling me "Papa".

Chev The only Black people I know with naturally blonde hair are Australian Aborigines.

frankster Totally agree. I'm a little confused by your statement. So are you suggesting that the Divine DOES do falsehood along with truth? Absolutely. However when it comes to the Bible, that's not MY assertion nor is it the assertion of most Biblical scholars. Whether you call it embellishment, poetic license, or out right fabrications...we all agree that many of the stories in it simply are not true. WHO authored those stories are up for debate, but their actuality...not as much. You don't ANSWER a question with a question but sometimes you must RESPOND to a question with a question to gain more understanding of the nature of it in order to answer properly. Yes, there IS another answer. Most likely NEITHER, because the story was most likely an ALLEGORY that didn't take place. Secondly, the Bible doesn't say "God" spoke to them, but rather the "Lord God". The Hebrew has Yahweh Even in the English translation, there is a clear difference between "God" and "Lord God". According to Webster's Dictionary: Definition of holy 1: exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness 2: DIVINE 3: devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity 4a: having a divine quality b: venerated as or as if sacred https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/holy Only if the Divine wishes this to be so. If the Divine wishes to impart the clear unadulterated truth to you with no spin or seasoning, that is entirely possible as well. Agreed. I know, however that would be a real question some would have for those who dare question the need for preachers, priests, and "holy" books. There is often a difference between a message that is unclear and hard to understand and one that is out right FALSE. If Adam was told he would die THAT DAY and lived hundreds more years after that....clearly that statement was false. No amount of spin or claiming "a day with the lord is a thousand years" is gonna make it true. He simply DID NOT DIE that day. The only way that could NOT be a contradiction is if Angels were men. That's YOUR spiritual interpretation. That's YOUR sacred meaning. However for it to OFFICIALLY be considered as such, others would have to generally come to the same conclusion. This is one of the problems with relying on scriptures to determine morality. So much of it is unclear and ambiguous there is too much room for error. Based on the research I've done so far, the story of Jacob allegedly wrestling with an Angel is another allegory that symbolizes a man who rebels against the Divine. An Angel is a member of Divinity. So if you are fighting and opposing Divinity and righteousness...whose side are you REALLY on and who's backing you up? Satan? Another point I'd like to make is..... If you recall, after wrestling with the Angel Jacob receives the name "Israel" which literally means "he fights God" So if you look at it, the "Children of Israel" could literally be called "Children of he who fights God" Not a very good name. There is evidence that the Canaanites actually gave them that name (Children of Israel) because they likely saw them as desert invaders and evil people who invaded their land and cities, murdering and destroying what which THEY found holy and sacred. For the Canaanites, perhaps the "Children of Israel" was another term for "children of rebellion".

"Yo mama so old she got yogurt in her titties instead of milk. Go on somewhere and sit down."

According to the stats I just looked up (which may be true or false) Black doctors make up about 5% of Physicians. That's not a bad statistic. It could certainly be better obviously but it's a lot better than only 1% or 2% which I expected to find. They didn't specify whether these were strictly AfroAmerican (FBA/ADOS) doctors or included African and Caribbean doctors as well. It may be that the small island nation of CUBA has more Black doctors than the United States.

It's about time somebody recognized perfection when they were in the presence of it.....lol

Michael Montvert I tell Black teachers....JUST TEACH THE TRUTH ABOUT HISTORY. No need to give it a name to draw attention and scrutiny to yourself and your agenda. Just do like the White racist teachers do and teach the kids what you want them to know without announcing your plans.

ProfD IMO, we have no idea of how the effects of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) caused by slavery could have been passed down to and could be the source of all forms of dysfunction among AfroAmericans. While slavery has had a profoundly negative effect on AfroAmericans in terms of out culture and behavior.....I still put much of the blame on low IQ, lol. Too many stupid people are in our ranks. We need to separate ourselves from them and build our own private communities to see real progress. Cynique Survival is about evolving. Or having enough intelligence to acquire and secure resources that allow you to maintain YOUR way of life without having to "evolve" or change. The more resources you own and control, the less likely you are to be influenced and manipulated by others outside your community.

To answer your question....NO. Most Democrats at the Federal level can't be trusted (sorry Stephan....lol) and are in cahoots with the Republicans. Both are playing for the same team and it's one big game. However UNDERSTANDING this is key to breaking the spell and moving towards progress because as long as you BELIEVE that you actually have a choice you will continue to do nothing but EXPECT for the "opposition" to provide the resistance for you. Once you realize that they aren't true opposition and won't help you....then you'll get up and do what needs to be done yourself and THEN you will begin to see progress.

Even more so than that..... White people can ride around and even walk around in the most gang infested ghetto and remain unharmed but if a Black person tries driving through the gangsters will be asking all kinds of questions like which set is he down with, who did he come to see, is he a snitch or the actual police itself? But they leave the White folks alone. Yep.......this will be noted for future references, lol