Pioneer1

ProfD I like the term @Michel Montvert uses...Demosocialist. Well, I'm not crazy about ANY term with the word "demo" in it. The word "demo" is really related to the Greek term for demon. Democracy doesn't mean "rule of the people". It literally means "rule of demons" in Greek. It seems to work in Nordic countries. But, it also ties back to a homogeneous society. True. Capitalism and socialism can peacefully coexist. Absolutely There will always be people who are more industrious and driven than others. They deserve to make as much money as they can generate. That's what I'm talking about and this is why I can't really get with a system that denies a person credit for going that extra mile and working harder or being more clever to secure wealth and resources for themselves. As long as they aren't harming their fellow man in the process. Then, the United States isn't homogenous either. Yes. That's one of the things that makes this nation so great. Our diversity. It makes for a beautiful culture and a lot of beautiful people. Michel Montvert Flemish and Walloons are NOT the same people. Any more than Irish and Scots-Irish in Ulster. Or Serbs and Bosnians. When you say they are different... Are you talking just culture, or do they tend to have different physical features from eachother like skin complexion, eye color, growing hair, ect...??

frankster You have "Adam" which means son of the Earth/ground - red earth And "Dam" which means Blood.....all man is of One blood and its red. The word "Adam" literally means "Of Blood" But like many Hebrew terms it has two meanings in Hebrew: 1. Of Blood and/or 2. Red One (person), because Dam is also used for the color red. Plain and simple. No spin or re-interpretation by Christian theologians to try to give it a newer and more confusing definition. The story of Adam and Eve is an old allegory written to symbolize the making of White people by the Elohim. The word ADHAMAH means soil or dirt, not ADAM. That's what I mean about deception and mis-intepretation on the part of Caucasian scholars who know better but will try to deceive the reader by confusing the definitions. I have seen quite a bit Patriarchal societies in which women sit on the Throne or hold the seat of Power. Ofcourse. Because one woman holding power over the land doesn't necessarily cancel out a society being a Patriarchy. First of all, just because she sits on the throne...doesn't mean she's wielding any power. It could be just ceremonial like the Queen of England allegedly is. Second, even if she did hold SOME of the power...as long as the culture determines that the families are headed by men, most of the institutions are headed by men, and most of the local governments are headed by men....it's still a Patriarchy regardless as to who is on top. A Google search states the following about Patriarchy .......a system of society or government in which the father or eldest male is head of the family and descent is traced through the male line. Well, you might find anything on Google...lol. 25 different definitions for a word. Some definitions you never heard of before and others that completely contradict each other. When it comes to discussion, I like to stick with Webster's or Oxford dictionaries. According to Webster, the Definition of patriarchy is: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patriarchy So for it to be a Patriarchy the fathers must rule the families, the wives and children must depend on them, and the inheritance and power goes down the male line. That's a broader and more accurate definition.

frankster Then you recognize that they value, as you accept that they are not "just allegories" Seek the value Oh yes, they are valuable just for the entertainment alone...lol. Like a good novel... The fact that they have us conversing with eachother over them proves their value on some level, regardless of whether they are factual or not. Name one such source? Well, I gave you one already. I provided a link to the Hebrew translations and transliterations of the Old Testament. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/ There is what you and your family call you and then there is what other people call you....Robbie Rob Bob and Bobbie. Those are all different versions of the SAME NAME. Helel and Lucifer are TOTALLY DIFFERENT NAMES all together. One isn't a "version" of the other, but they're entirely different. True but only half the story.... What if I am in Cali and you are in NY then the times would be different 12 and 3....but remain true respectively The times would be different IN THOSE DIFFERENT REGIONS...but not in THEIR respective regions. If it's 12 in California, that fact isn't disrupted or even influenced by the time in New York, China, or anywhere else. It remains constant. It doesn't change. As the night progresses the CURRENT time will change, but the fact that it was 12 at THAT TIME didn't and won't change. For example, if a person was born at 6am on April 11th 1966.....THAT DOESN'T CHANGE. It may be 8pm August 31st 2022 right now...but the fact that they were born AT THAT time is a fact that doesn't change at all. True....and your sources ar all 100% true and free of propaganda? I can't say that. It tells me that you are talking about things you know not. If we're discussing history....then aren't we both? It's 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and even 5th hand information we've gotten from other sources. How much do you or I actually "know" for sure about the history we're discussing?

Cynique How do we know Eve(females) didn't come before Adam(males) but with their physical brawn, males imposed their version of who came first between males or females. After all, females are the species who give birth. It's an extremely convoluted issue. Who said one HAD to come before the other? Could it be that The CREATOR Created both males and females at the same exact time? frankster Neither can it be solely referring to the caucasians, as these legends are found among a few other cultures When you take into account what the word "Adam" means, then you realize it refers to Caucasians or that race we commonly call "White" That verse wasn't talking about ALL of humanity, but a specific group of humanity. Patriarchy means from father to son but if there is no son... it can go to a daughter That's Patrilineal. Patriarchal means men rule. You often have MATRILINEAL successorship of power in a PATRIARCHAL society where power is traced through the mother's bloodline rather than the father's. Which makes more sense anyway.

Coggins When it comes to race I refuse to play my white man is better than yours. That’s the biggest problem right now. They are only tools to be used and rivals to conquer. The problem isn't a matter of "my White man" is better than "your White man". The problem is you are following A White man and I'm not following ANY White men because I don't trust them like you. You trust the Republican party and follow Trump. I don't trust ANY of them because both parties have a long and documented history of deception and mistreatment of AfroAmericans. But we are strong enough to meet any challenges. Our people are strong enough, but are we smart enough??? Black folks are WORLD RENOWN for our strength, but when it comes to smarts....lol.....well. Michel Montvert Welfare in the USA is poverty maintenance. It does not provide what a person needs to get a job while also raising a child. PREACH!!!! Just like the Department of "Corrections" rarely corrects inmates and isn't designed to do so, welfare isn't designed to get people out of poverty but keep them in it by giving them barely enough to live and no skills and opportunities to get out of poverty. Franklin Delano Roosevelt actually DID do this back in the 30s and 40s and the government actually did it's job and raised millions out of poverty with programs that gave people good jobs with benefits that they KEPT and retired from.

Michel Montvert They didn't get it. Mexicans are NATIVE, Spanish are WHITE, ok... Mexicans whom gringos think look Spanish often really do not. Well put. I am always bothered by the lack of understanding among the various peoples discussed here. Blacks (USA), Mexicans, Indians from the USA, all 3 groups misunderstand each other. Since I'm fairly familiar with all 3, I find myself always having to "translate" between them... translate cultural facts if not language, per se. And whites... well, same as everyone else, it depends if we're dealing with those who are conscious or those who are not. (My generation said "conscious" instead of "woke", right.) I know you're not lying because I've witnessed the same things over and over again for years, especially with people of color who come from other countries. It's not so much that you're educated, have traveled to other nations, and have experienced other cultures to the point that you're qualified to explain these different cultures...to most of them it's the fact that you're White and they TRUST and RESPECT you more than they do eachother. I've often seen Latinos ignore what a Black manager is telling them until a White supervisor of lesser rank comes along and tells them to do it and they do it. Having traveled a lot myself I've seen over and over how Whites have to play "translator" between other races and even between other groups of Black people because many of them don't want to have anything to do with each other but will gladly cooperate with the Whites. Often times it takes a White person to settle the differences among people of color. I will disagree on the notion of Africans here before Columbus. There is no good evidence for it that any anthropologist recognizes. The word "recognizes" is the key word, because a lot of things exist that people simple don't or won't recognize. We know that most anthropologists are either Caucasian or they are people of color who went to institutions controlled by Caucasians. We also know that many if not most Caucasians tend to be racist and have a long and documented history of lying about history, covering up archeological, religious, and other historical findings and keeping them secret for decades. So for those reasons alone we can't trust what most Western Archeologists present to us about the past. Van Sertima was academically a farce. And this notion contains the idea that Africans were responsible for Native civilizations, which is just more culture-thieving such as whites did rampantly, even claiming that the mounds in Ohio were built by Romans or Greeks or Basques or anyone WHITE they could think of. But, this is a huge topic and so I leave it with that. I'm curious as to exactly what part of Ivan Van Sertima's material has been proven false by "academia"? And the key word will be PROVEN; not simply AGREED upon not to be accepted by a group of Whites. I'm talking actually PROVEN incorrect? NO real anthropologists have seen any legitimate evidence for pre-Columbian contact. What about the huge Olmec Heads found in the southern coast of Mexico? The features are unmistakably African. And they're wearing helmets, obviously not slaves. This may not be absolute PROOF that Africans were here before Columbus but it's certainly strong EVIDENCE that they were.

Cynique I'm curious about what economic "System" exists or should exist wherein a country can "have it both ways", - a utopian paradise where there is prosperity and equality for all, replete with a guarantee that everybody, both the ordinary and the extraordinary, will live the good life. I'm not sure if I even WANT a society like this. First of all, I'm not sure I want everything to be "equal" because: 1. If I work 40 or just 20 hours a week for my money, I don't want someone who doesn't work AT ALL to be given the same payment each week. 2. I feel if someone works hard or comes up with a new invention or plays the lottery or stocks and ends up getting rich...I don't think their wealth should be evenly distributed in the name of "equality". It's my understanding that some Communist teachings advocate such a re-distribution. I think that's extreme. No need to go from one extreme to another. Rather than "equal" I think the word we're looking for is FAIR. I think HEALTH CARE should be fair and everyone who is a citizen or resident should get it. Perhaps that would come close to what people call "equality" but even that wouldn't be equal because some people need more medical assistance than others. ProfD The amount of money the US prints, er, spends on defense and aborted space missions and other irrelevant sh8t could improve life for millions of people. Exactly, which is why they choose NOT to spend it on the people but on toys and gadgets to shoot off into outer space. If the plan is DEPOPULATION then why would they spend money to save the population? Delano I had another idea. People would receive goods based on their spirituality. So if you tried to steal you would lose more than what you stole. Who would judge who had more "spirituality" than the other? And what standard would they use to measure this spirituality with? Some say that just having a SPIRIT makes you a "spiritual person" whether you go through various rituals or not. Further..... If a person tried to steal food and other items necessary for survival because THEY were being denied and deprived because of prejudice and mistreatment....then would punishing them for theft really be justice?

Michel Montvert Since you were old enough to remember.... When King and Kennedy were assassinated, do you remember White people cheering or expressing approval of those actions? A lot of White people I know who were alive at that time said things like "he got what he deserved" and other things expressing joy over their deaths. Michael Moore said that when he was a kid in school, when it was announced that MLK was assassinated...the entire class started clapping and cheering. I've heard many similar stories. ProfD America definitely looks different than it did back in the 1960s. The middle class of America has been expanded and anesthetized with gross consumerism. Yet, racism and socioeconomic problems remain unchanged. Yeah, for one thing...White people have more "allies" today! Back in the 50s and 60s when the nation was primarily Black or White with a few Native Americans...Black people were far more united. The racial lines were clear. On top of that.... Most Latinos and Asians were seeking friendship and socio-political ties with AfroAmericans at that time because they saw us and our power rising. Today, you have a lot of people of different races and colors but many if not most of them who come from other countries and cultures side with White people and seek alliances with them. Who wants to unite with "crack heads" and "gang bangers"?? Since the 80s, AfroAmericans as a community have been tagged with one negative stereotype after another to the point that even fellow Black people from other countries are ready to walk across the street when they see the average nigga bouncing up the block in their direction. Especially if he's Rapping to himself with a crazy look on his face. Cynique America definitely looks different than it did back in the 1960s. The middle class of America has been expanded and anesthetized with gross consumerism. Yet, racism and socioeconomic problems remain unchanged. Did they REALLY believe that? Or were they a bunch of White kids who looked at the riots of the 50s and 60s....thought that White civilization was on it's way to collapse...and decided to get high and live a life of leisure before they died? "Get a job? Fur' what man? The world is ending man. Let's get high and make love while we still can man!"

Troy Social media I’ve always asserted has become a tool in helping us to perpetuate our own oppression. This is true for two reasons: 1. Social media tends to give one a sense of anonymity and make them feel that they can post all types of vile and offensive material they wouldn't ordinarily say in public for fear of the consequences. 2. Social media platforms tend to be echo chambers where people settle into groups that share THEIR values, morals, politics, ect..So any offensive or even erroneous and outlandish beliefs they have about life or other groups of people are NOT likely to be challenged or corrected.

Michel Montvert While I don't disagree with the points you made above.....and actually I think most of them are spot on....when people bring up Germany, Japan, the Netherlands, ect....as examples of safe, clean, well governed nations- Although it's true when comparing them to the United States, there are 2 major factors we have to take into consideration: 1. Nearly all of them are under U.S. military protection. Which means while much of OUR taxes and spending goes to Defense and military costs in the United States....THOSE nations don't have to spend nearly as much on defense because we're defending them. So their revenue can be put back into their respective nations in terms of infrastructure, education, ect.... 2. With the exception of Canada....most of those nations mentioned above are for the most part homogeneous. About 95% of the population of any of those countries are of the same race, so those in government in the legislative and executive roles don't have as strong of an "us against them" mentality when it comes to doing for it's citizens. Chances are those in Parliament or Congress or whatever legislative body is governing the nation see other citizens as their own fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, sons, daughters, ect....so when they craft laws and institute policies.....they usually have the best intentions in mind. I said USUALLY. They are looking to benefit their citizens because they can relate to them. However in the United States, whether it's state or federal government....you often have people of one race who look at their constituents who are of another race as "aliens" or even sub-humans. They see them as "subjects" more so than fellow citizens. This is the pervasive mentality many of our governing bodies. Having lived in different major cities across the United States, I notice that when you look at a subway station or some public structure....in many communities if some hoodlums come along and vandalize it the city or county will LEAVE it vandalized or tear it down all together. They may clean up the trash around it after a few days, but the spray paint and damage will remain for years. They have the mentality of "they destroyed their own property so let THEM live with it" But in both Belgium and Germany I've seen public structures like bus stops and subway stations get damaged and spray painted by youth and the governments will clean it up and restore it within a few days....and will often do this over and over again as many times as it's desecrated. Because in those nations they have the mentality of "WE have to fix up OUR property no matter how many times the hoodlums destroy it" Those nations have a different mind set where they care about ALL of their citizens, not just a select few.

Yes, I figured you probably were. But I thought I'd look out for you and bring it to your attention anyway.....just incase!

I think the proper word to use would be "HAVE" instead of "HAS", but we understand your point baby. I'm sure a lot of people are wondering the same thing.

Coggins If you want to know the truth, the REAL "Black baby genocide" isn't coming from abortion. It's coming from these thugs and hoodlums running around in the ghetto shooting children by accident and now on purpose. In the last couple years, so many Black children have been shot and killed on the streets it's unbelievable. Children have been killed by urban violence for decades, but since 2020 it's been unprecedented! Just 10 or 15 years ago if a child was shot and killed in the Black community on purpose it would make NATIONAL headlines. It would only happen nation wide every few months. I'm talking about if it happened on PURPOSE. Now it's happening in a lot of major cities on a WEEKLY basis.

Kenneth No, you don't sound like someone who hates Capitalism to me. But you DO sound like (and I may be wrong) someone who thinks Capitalism isn't good for our people or people in general and that perhaps Socialism would be a better economic system for us. Personally, I think we need a MIXTURE of both Capitalism and Socialism (with an inclination towards Capitalism) for a more balanced and effective economy for OUR people as AfroAmericans. Too much Capitalism will lead to violence and widespread poverty. Too much Socialism will make our people lazy and stagnate progress. We need balance. However whatever we do...WE (AfroAmericans) must decide and control our economic fate and not allow those from outside of our community to do so.

frankster Originally Woman was created to be man's help meet....that was the arrangement in the beginning. Genesis 2:18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And that's one way of looking at and understanding that scripture. However there is another way, especially when you read a more accurate translation. But let's take THIS translation that you posted: "It's not good that THE MAN should be alone" It didn't say that it wasn't good for "men" in general to be alone but it was talking about a SPECIFIC MAN. What am I getting at? The allegory of Adam and Eve refers not to all of humanity but to a specific group of humanity....namely White people or Caucasians (a term I tend to use more often). More so than that Indigenous races and cultures around the planet, Caucasian cultures in their various forms tend to be far more misogynistic and oppressive of women demanding absolute submission by them to their men. This scripture is a reflection of that. Caucasians have only started travelling the globe 800 - 1200 years ago.....Patriarchy been around 4000 to 12,000 yrs Caucasians have been traveling the planet by one method or another since about 2000 B.C. But I have a question for you... Is "male rule" the same as Patriarchy? I say one isn't necessarily the same as the other.

Michel Montvert Well you needn't debate with me as I don't find that what you say contradicts what I said Don't worry, he WON'T debate with you....lol. He only debates or disagrees with other Black people he thinks he's intellectually superior to. I was born with a reflective butt, that's all. Lol...there are many things I could do with that statement but not knowing whether you're male or female....I'll leave it alone! Lots said here. I'll address a few factual matters relative to anthropology, where I have some expertise. First, humans did not start farming upon leaving Africa. That occurred about 60k yrs ago, and agriculture only appeared within the past 11k yrs or so. Mostly even more recently that 11k. What drove the development of agriculture was climate change. In the early Holocene glaciers were melting, and then there was the Younger Dryas period which was a temporary reversion to cold conditions. All of this reduced the availability of large herd animals to hunt. Those people who remained hunter-gatherers changed their tactics considerably, concentrating on smaller game and a more diverse array of food sources. In the Mideast, along the Sahel, in India-SE Asia, in northern China, in Mesoamerica and in Carib-Andes food and animal domestication proceeded. Notice that one of those mega-domestication regions was in Africa. Africa was not entirely a cornupopia of easy pickings. In the Sahara cattle were domesticated to secure a large mammal food source, and aquatic and agricultural resources also were intensified and developed. One need not leave Africa to require adjustments to food procuring technology in the early-mid Holocene. Well, that is OFFICIAL history in Western academia, however it may or may not be true. I tend to AUTOMATICALLY not trust "official" Western history today because they are constantly coming out with "new" findings that change timelines and incidents that were once agreed upon and also I knew much of history is purposely covered up by Western scholars for various reasons. Also, as for "the West" not understanding about spiritual access enhanced by mind-altering substances... that is not true. Western culture as we understand it has 2 principle roots: Neolithic Europe and the Yamnaya (Indoeuropean) steppe culture. The former is less well known to us, but they did have an egalitarian society. women were generally in charge, and from the earth-based imagery in their art we can infer that they were very much involved with "nature spirits" and so on. As for the Yamnaya, they are known to have used in the steppes a concoction mentioned in the Rig Veda called "soma" ("houma" in Avestan) which it is believed consisted of a mixture of Cannabis, opium and Ephedra (ma huang). Evidence of Cannabis use among the Israelite priests has been found, and they had to have acquired this from Indoeuropeans, such as the Hurrians who were present in the Mideast even in Sumerian times. The term "Western" isn't necessarily synonymous with Indo-European or even Europeans period historically. When people say "The West" or "Western" they are usually talking about the Christian era North/Western European (especially England, France, Germany, U.S., Canada, Australia) culture and land base. The indigenous tribes of Europe...especially before the Caucasians moved in and settled there...are NOT considered "Western" or part of Western history. This along with a lot of culture with which we might be better off was expunged from Europe by Christian powers. The amount of culture wiped out by spreading Christianity in Europe is astonishing. Christian influence trashed much of Roman society, and the regional and local pagan cultures were decimated. The same problem exists elsewhere due to Islam. Those 2 religions have destroyed a lot of culture. Exactly. Because both religions were used by Caucasians who incorporated them to conquer and exploit the indigenous peoples in the lands they invaded. European Caucasians primarily used Christianity. Arab and other Asian Caucasians primarily used Islam. But this is why I said the pre-Christian Europe shouldn't be considered "Western". frankster To me it's more than just an allegory....calling it just an allegory people tend to miss it's importance and relevance. Not sure if Michel did, but you can't find ME referring to this stories as "just" allegories. They may be many other things besides allegories. However their other identities and purposes don't negate the fact that they ARE still allegories. It may be many things besides an allegory, however all of it's other identities and functions ma Prior to eating of the "tree of knowledge" they were in a animalistice stage (more Instinctive Gatherer than Hunter).. Are you sure about this? According to the Bible you believe in, before eating of the "tree of knowledge" Adam was charged with NAMING the animals and TAKING CARE of the Garden of Eden. More of a farmer or Garden tiller, not a hunter. Reputable sources??? Sources with a history of giving factual information and not lying. You say John and I say Juan....No one is lying. When you take the word "Helel" and change it into "Lucifer" than that IS lying. Names don't translate. They are what they are and shouldn't be modified except when there just is no other choice. John is John. That's what his mama named him, and that's what he should be called...lol. One is a translation and one is a transliteration...they are both accurate. The transliteration is accurate...but not the translation. However this is beyond argument. If you refuse to accept this, I won't waste time going back and forth with you over it. The Universal Constant of Change is fundamental to The Nature of Time.... Things may change, but the TRUTH of what they were at the time when it was stated remains the same. In other words..... If you asked me what time it was at 3pm... And I told you "3pm". Even at Midnight....THAT fact would remain the same! It may not be 3pm right now.... But the FACT that it was 3pm when you asked me remains the same, has not changed, and WILL NOT change! Like the biology books being used in schools.....that you also said had falsities in them? For them to get in schools some reputable sources must have recommended them... Perhaps in some cases, but in many other cases the books that end up in schools are the books that the school board, government, and other concerned interests APPROVE of for various purposes such as indoctrination of the population. It should be noted that while certain sources are "reputable" for providing truth. Certain other sources are "reputable" for providing propaganda...lol. You not sure is ....quite telling you are in danger of straddling the fence....or worst contradicting yourself My admitting that I' not sure is VERY telling. It tells you that I'm HONEST and don't claim to know that which I don't...lol. Sometimes it's BEST to straddle the fence if you don't know what's lurking around down on the ground on either side of you....lol "Stop straddling the fence! Come on down from there punk!" I keep telling you that the scriptures were written by inspired men....who are vain frail and do err Ok?? And?? Pornography is also produced by "inspired" men. Weapons are produced by "inspired" men. The questions are WHO or WHAT is inpiring them and for what purpose??? We are all part of the Divine.....we learn from each other Indirectly, yes...I believe this. And I KNOW we learn from each other!

Coggins And what should we charge Donald Trump with for failing to protect our troops under attack? If you'll remember.....back in 2019 Iran launched missile attacks against a U.S. military base in Iraq injury dozens of U.S. soldiers and he did NOTHING in retaliation.

1. AfroAmericans aren't free. Infact NOBODY in the United States is. 2. It wasn't "the Republicans" who "freed" Black Americans, it was A REPUBLICAN (only one) who Emancipated AfroAmericans and that was President Abraham Lincoln 3. Slavery wasn't ended. It was just modified. It STILL exists in the criminal justice system.

I agree that there has been a war (by the racists....not this nation) against Black families since the founding of this nation. Btw...some of the right-wing racists that YOU support politically are on the front lines of this war. I also agree with you that for decades White women have craftily influenced the minds of many AfroAmerican woman to hate men, not trust men, seek a more independent and anti-family life, and even experiment with homosexuality in many cases.....all in a plot and plan to destabilize and destroy the Black family. However...... I don't think abortion is the main culprit here. As ProfD said, abortion isn't the main form of birth control among Black women. Most AfroAmericans HAVE NO form of birth control that they use on a regular basis outside of condoms.....if they remember to use them. Most of our people tend to be VERY irresponsible when it comes to sexual activity and even bringing children into this world. A lot of people may not like what I'm about to say but I'd dare say a lot of children in the Black community SHOULD have been aborted instead of being brought into this world. I realize that The SUPREME BEING has the Ultimate Decision on who is born and who dies, however from a secular point of view so many of our people are screwed up mentally and physically that they probably would have been better off not being born. Religion and weird beliefs about life and abortion influences the mother to make irresponsible decisions about their pregnancies.

Personally I prefer more Black students get into "refined" sports like gymnastics and martial arts....than thuggish and brutal sports like football and wrestling

Michel Montvert And... the sad fact is that even many legitimate tribal members have plenty of white blood. Exactly, and that's part of the problem. Not only is it a matter of "identity theft" from Whites with only trace (and sometimes not even that) amounts of Native blood claiming tribal lineage....but even more disturbing it's a matter of self-hatred among Natives who WELCOME nearly White so-called members to represent them and their tribes in political and financial matters; feeling their White phenotype makes them more qualified to be successful. Then in the 60s Indians became hip and many whites wanted to be them. Some of the shenanigans which went on were extreme. Especially offensive was the habit of hippies who'd spent 2 weeks with some tribe then holding workshops at high prices to teach "Native Spiritual Ways" and so on. True. I didn't realize this until about 30 years ago. I still remember the late 70s and seeing Hippies on the streets begging for money, playing guitars, with long hair calling everybody "dude" and "brother"...lol. But I didn't realize the entire background of the movement until the 90s when the origin was broken down. I have a good perspective on that issue since I did for real live among Native people in Guatemala including studying with a chimán, or priest, but things are not as those hippies taking advantage would have it. One does not learn spiritual ways in a workshop from another white person. This is analogous to the whites presuming to speak politically for Indians. I was told, look, you have learned things. You could perform some of the functions of a chimán here, but you are not Mayan, and so you have no relevance to anyone and nobody would pay you any mind. Also, when you go back among the gringos, you will find that they won't listen to a word you say. On top of that..... It is my understanding that certain Spirits won't make contact with you UNLESS you are of a certain lineage. In this case: Mayan, Inca, or some other form of Native American. You really should do another thread about some of your experiences with the Shamans down there; I find these subjects very interesting. The dynamic is not the same at all. In Mexico, the average person, sometimes called a "mestizo", a Spanish speaker, considers themselves to have indigenous roots. is aware that much of their culture is indigenous, and does not see those who retain indigenous language and identity as "the other". "Somos todos mexicanos," one woman told me when I asked her about the ethnic variety in Mexico. And she was light-skinned and did not speak a native language. True. However among most Mexicans, even though they NOW acknowledge their indigenous ancestry....most of them still consciously and subconsciously "rank" themselves in order of superiority based on the amount of indigenous blood they have...especially as it relates to their phenotype and how it's expressed. In other words... Among many Meztizos it's ok to claim your ancestry.....as long as you "look" Spanish/White. P.S. Did y'all know that there are black people in Guatemala? They live on the eastern coast, including in the town of Livingston, and are of Garifuna culture, which also is found in adjacent Honduras.They speak a Native language, since they are essentially an indigenous group with whom so many Africans mixed that the are in appearance "black", I can't speak for others but I BEEN knew it...lol. There are indigenous Black populations all up and down the east coast of Latin America. They have various origins from escaped slaves who joined the Native Americans to Black workers who left the islands to form little work communities along the coasts decades ago....but the majority of "indigenous" Black groups in Latin America are descendants of Africans who had BEEN coming to the Americas CENTURIES before the Europeans even knew it existed settling among the indigenous for trade and various other activities.

Kenneth Thanks for the insightful posts that stimulate me to comment on....lol. Well I'll say something that may sound shocking but in THIS nation poor people....collectively...ARE primarily to blame for their condition. Yes they are being exploited and the wages are being kept low and they are being manipulated and hammered with one distraction after another but most of them don't seem to CARE even when these injustices are brought to them for their attention. In the old days, men used to get together and MARCH and PROTEST and even RIOT to demand hire wages. They'd be all over the streets demanding hire wages and more benefits. That's when it was a man's responsibility to take care of his wife and children....no excuses. But now when it's primarily women's responsibility to support themselves and any children they have and most men only contribute what they want or what the court ORDERS them to contribute....the pressure on them to earn more simply isn't there. If the average man in the lower socio-economic sector is getting (notice I didn't say "earning"....there's a good reason for that) just enough to keep his bills paid, some food in his stomach, and can maintain his supply of liquor to drink and weed to smoke -he thinks he's doing good. Who cares about a LIVING WAGE? Who cares about SAFE WORKING CONDITIONS? Who cares about a PENSION PLAN? Who cares about eliminating this "right to work" crap that is getting people fired all over the nation for the simplest of reasons by egotistical managers??? Until the POOR and WORKING CLASS people put their differences aside long enough to decide ENOUGH IS ENOUGH....don't expect much to change. Personally, I'm no longer riding for the poor. I'm working class and trying my best to GET OUT of that class and into the upper middle class and eventually WEALTHY class. Not only is it nicer but because the people tend to be more selfish...they actually CARE ABOUT THEMSELVES.

frankster I think we've conversed long enough that I'll stop using the quotes and go back to MY normal format of posting people's quotes in red. how do you verify a fact? Through direct observation or a reputable source. The Noah and the building of the Ark is about Trust and Faith when the whole World seems to be against you. Perhaps this is what YOU get out of it. I got disappointment from it because I realized it was most likely plagiarized from earlier sources. I don't get trust and faith from falsified documents. How does Helel help you? Knowing about him and his existence adds to my wealth of knowledge and information. What evidence of this do you have..... Look it up for yourself in the Hebrew transliteration of the text. Isaiah ch.14 vs 12 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/14.htm It says HELEL BEN SAHAR ("ben" means "son of"). It says NOTHING about some character named "Lucifer" in the Hebrew text. That term was FALSELY attributed in the translation .cannot the same doubts you have of scripture be said about this Helel son of sofar? No. Although I haven't verified EITHER....I trust the Hebrew transliteration more than the English translation because like we discussed earlier...it's closer to the original text. That's what I said....you using different words to arrive at the same conclusion. No. You said information is "pure data". Information isn't "pure" anything...it's a bunch of words and numbers. Data is FACTS Put another way..... All data is information but not all information is data. All Truths are but half Truth.....it is the fundamental nature of truth I don't understand this, could you explain it? If the story is based on facts....then there is Truth - seek it. Absolutely. However so as not to waste time seeking truth, don't go looking in places you KNOW contain falsehood....like the Bible. Look elsewhere to places or people with a better reputation for disseminating facts, lol. Do you think the Babylonian Captivity/conquest took place? I'm on the fence about that and simply am not sure. I believe the CONQUEST of Babylon by the Persians took place. But I'm not sure about the captivity of the Israelites. If not then your idea that the scriptures were influenced by Babylon is False How so? My premise about the scriptures being influenced by Babylon is backed up by the fact that many if not most of the books of the Old Testament were WRITTEN in Babylon! Jeremiah, Daniel, Amos, Isaiah, ect....were written in Babylon. You yourself stated that our books of Health Biology Law and Psychology have falsities and errors in them....yet we use them still. Correct. And the reasons why you CAN use them and use them properly is because you are seeing them in their proper perspective....as man-made books that can and often do contain errors. Most people who follow the Bible DO NOT see it as a man made book that can contain errors but see it as a pure and Holy book with no mistakes. And THAT is a big mistake. I only seek the truth Then you've come to the right place...lol. This is the Truth Depot! Michel Montvert The Adam & Eve story is so obviously allegory; it amazes me that Biblical literalists would believe it verbatim. Lol...that's why they're called Bible "literalists". They literally believe EVERYTHING in the Bible as the Divine Word. These 2 are created, and then experience the transition to farming! All in one lifetime! We now know that Homo sapiens is 300k yrs old, while farming is at most 12k years old. Humans had to "leave the garden" where food was available for the taking, to be forced to "earn their bread sweating and stooping over the earth." Yes, they began to farm because environmental changes reduced the wild food available. One could also look at it as symbolizing the shift from a hunter-gatherer society to a more agricultural society as they moved from Africa where it was warmer and food tended to grow more readily and plentiful to the more harsh desert and mountainous areas of the Middle East where vegetation was more scarce and you had to rely on hunting and actually farming and tilling the soil to make it more suitable for growth. There is an Israeli archaeologist who has examined every one of the events of Exodus, the plagues and so on, and found scientific explanations for all of it. Yes, it rained frogs, the water turned red, and a northern bit of the Red Sea went briefly dry, allowing people to walk across. The problem with an archaeologist attempting to "prove" that the events of the Bible had a more natural and less "super natural" explaination is that it feeds into the narrative of Bible thumpers of how "science" will go to extremes trying to attack and dismiss their faith. It would be better for the well educated to regulate the Bible to being a religious and dogmatic book of myths and allegories than to go on a MISSION to explain away each miracle or super natural event at a time as if they actually took place. It gives those events too much legitimacy and feeds into the conspiracy. If we read that an ancient person was "possessed by demons", do we believe or dismiss the assertion? What we know now is that person likely was schizophrenic or with some other mental disorder. So something there was real. Was it "demons"? Probably not. I'm not religious nor do I believe in the Bible obviously, however I personally think it could be BOTH. I don't believe in demons but I do believe in Spirits and believe they can possess people. I also believe that when people suffer from some bouts of mental illness just like being drunk or high...part of their psyche becomes more open and receptive to Spiritual contact and even Spiritual possession. This has been known and practiced for THOUSANDS if not MILLIONS of years however. It's nothing new around the planet.....only to the West. Delano -So NOW you wanna get into the conversation huh...lol When a White person gets involved....NOW you see it as legitimate huh...lol

Delano A couple of hundred years ago there was a race for America. It still is. And guess who's doing the racing to buy up America? Asians. By the way, this is a good example of what I'm talking about.... Cynique said: And I agree 100%....with her STATEMENT. I've made the same observation about Family Dollar and Dollar General. They aren't true dollar stores like the Dollar Tree (used to be). Oh, she says absolutely wonderful things from time to time. Spot on! My problem isn't with what she says....lol..it's with HER. ...thus the ad hominem attacks, lol. ProfD It seems like 92% of everything in the USA is made in China or another part of Asia. Ofcourse. Because China actually cares about it's ENTIRE nation (to a certain extent anyway) and designed and economy where they have enough jobs for over 90% of it's population to qualify for. In the United States...especially after the Civil Rights Movement....they INTENTIONALLY demolished it's manufacturing base because too many Black men were making good money and living a good life from them. In Detroit, Black men were moving up from Down South by the HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS getting those good paying factory jobs in Ford, GM, and Chrysler and buying nice houses, nice cars, even funding their own small businesses. White men saw this and got ANGRY and JEALOUS and tried to break up the unions and just decided to ship those jobs overseas to Asia and Latin America. Where most of them still remain. In China the government designed an economy where BOTH the educated and uneducated can make a good living for themselves. It used to be that way here....until racism got the better of them. Michel Montvert The current Gov Justice is a billionaire coal mine owner. How many times have they been suckered? How many times have these coal politicians screwed them? Doesn't matter... they'll still vote for them. If they are like most White people in the United States then they aren't really being suckered. They are SACRIFICING themselves to be exploited in order to maintain the system of racism. They know what's happening is not only unethical and against their own self interests as poor and working class citizens. However as long as a Republican governor comes along and pushes the right-wing ideology that Reagan and Trump have become legendary for reviving....they'll get their support. It's not about the money....or atleast it's not their highest priority. It's about preserving the system of racism and protecting it from all threats. Most White Americans will willingly sacrifice themselves as individuals to do this.

Michel Montvert I was teaching about the Iroquois Plan of Peace and there were progressive white teachers hiding around the doorjamb spying on me and reporting to the principal. I found that beyond acknowledging their existence and establishing that they should not be maltreated, any content involving Native culture was problematic. Ofcourse. On top of what you just said about covering up true Native American culture, there is also a movement among many Whites to STEAL Native American culture and identity and this has been going on for decades. If you look at most of the people who claim to represent most of the Native American tribes in political, legal, and public relations issues....it's usually some White person with a feather in their ear and long hair. They may CLAIM Native American heritage but obviously look nothing like the actual original Native Americans they are claiming. ......BTW I think it's time for true Liberals to reform that word "Progressive" because it's been sky-jacked by almost everyone with an agenda that is NOT Progressive. It used to be pretty clear that the Liberal agenda was for AfroAmerican and women's rights, pro-union/labor, and supported programs to help the poor. That was pretty much it and if you supported those things you were Liberal. Then they changed it to "progressive" and are adding 2 or 3 special interests a year to the movement and forcing people to go along with it or be labeled a Trump supporting right-winger.