Pioneer1

Troy I use the word Black not as a physical descriptor but as a way to describe a broad group of people (some of whom you would call white) who have been victimized by defacto and dejure white racism. Sadly, is has been a global phenomenon for several centuries and it effects Africans on the continent and throughout the diaspora. "Black" is the American term for this group of people. What about your use of the term "race"??? You need to get out more if you think Black people in American are largely one Ethnicity. I'll give you a minute to think about that more deeply. If you have not changed your mind (unlikely) then you can come at me again if you like. When I say "Black Americans" I'm talking strictly FBA/ADOS AfroAmericans. Not Caribbeans or Africans or most of their progeny as a group. There is some overlap and intermarriage but I'm talking mostly about AfroAmericans. Now AMONG us there are a few differences in cultural habits like dialect, certain foods, etc...but we're pretty much all part of the same ethnic group. Just like LATINOS....in the United States....are one large ethnic group but vary slightly from region to region and from national origin to national orgin. frankster If it is not physically real and true then it is not relevant.. What's "relevant" or "irrelevant" is highly subjective. Whether something exists or not....not so much. exist in the mind Ok????? No science does not accept race. Yes it absolutely DOES and I've proven this over and over again no matter how many times you choose to deny it.

Troy That statement has Dunning-Kruger Effect written all over it. Believe what you will. Where did you get that article from? I don't see a link attached to it. Do you mean as in an inherited trait. Okay what does THAT tell you? It tells me what I've been telling YOU for weeks.... That "race" can also be genetic based, depending on how a society defines it. Here you go again. You have cherry pick something that supports your argument while summarily rejecting the rest of the article which conflicts with your statement. Exactly. Just like when I present articles to YOU proving my point...you'll click on the link and scan the article to find something that SEEMINGLY disagrees with the excerpt I presented. You claim science doesn't recognize race. I present an excerpt to an article along with a link proving that science DOES...then you'll click on that link and find the word "ethnic group" in it and focus on THAT as some sort of "proof" to void out the point I made about race. Are you unable to grasp what was written or are you deliberately ignoring what was written? I'm not ignoring it. It's simply ONE EXERPT of many that agree or disagree with it. You tell me to research something. I pull something from the encyclopedia, and you tell me that you are still right and that you know more than what is in the encyclopedia. I know more than what is in THAT EXERPT you just posted. You double down by claiming access to knowledge that I as non-frat do not have access to -- you are too much man LOL! Apparently I'm not ENOUGH....lol....to convince you. frankster True.... Hence you cannot use penis size to decide whether or not a man(male) is a man...nor can you use breast size to decide whether a woman(female) is a woman But the fact that they HAVE penis and testicles places them squarely in the "male" category. The fact that a person HAS brown skin and kinky hair places them squarely in the Black/African racial category in this society. So human beings come in various texture color sizes and body proportions....they still all just humans Nobody has denied that. But humans are often placed in different categories. We are saying that these social constructs based on these apparent differences are false wrong and in error. But who are YOU or what position that YOU HOLD to declare it "wrong" or "false"? That's like you claiming that fact that we have prisons or police officers is "wrong". You may not like it, but who are YOU to sit up and declare it "wrong"???? Just say you DISAGREE with it...don't say it's "wrong". Chev Colorism and White Supremacy is the issue and has caused so much oppression in this world. And continues to do so in it's various forms. Even if White people were to completely disappear from this planet, the legacy that they have left will live on for centuries to one degree or another.

Real talk...... I'm not sure what to make of the verdict. I'm glad he didn't get convicted on more serious charges because I like Puffy and think he's a true inspiration for Black males in this society. However I often think about the victims and alleged victims of what he was accused of. If they were MY sons or daughters would I still like Puffy or think justice was served? Perhaps the good he offers out weighs the bad. He may have taken advantage of and hurt a lot of people but he's also made a lot people...a lot of AfroAmericans...wealthy and gave them opportunities they ordinarily wouldn't have gotten. With that in mind..... I'll take the reports of him getting on his knees and praying after the verdict was read as a positive sign that he is a changed man. I hope he comes back better and stronger than he was before but more righteous.

I've noticed similar events..... It seems as if several things are going on in this society and major shifts are taking place. A lot of Americans...especially younger Americans....who should be out working and making a living for themselves, their families, and solving their problems....are actually just IGNORING their responsibilities, partying, and "living their best lives" before dying for one reason or another. They've given up and have resorted to having as much fun as they can before the bottom drops out. Partying and having a good time this week....dead or locked up next month. They no longer care or look to their future. But another situation is that society is so full of immigrants and they're making money and taking advantage of as much as they can in America. They too are partying and making money and enjoying themselves and taking advantage of the FREEDOM that allows them to not only make money but attend events that formerly were strictly for Americans....and just take over. In most other nations, national events are for THAT nationality...other ethnicities for the most part aren't welcomed and de facto not allowed to participate. In America in most public events...this isn't legally allowed. Many immigrants know this and take advantage of the fact that they can attend nearly ANY public party or event...so they come in large crowds and essentially take over sections of it but then impose THEIR OWN forms of intolerance in those events blocking other nationalities and ethnicities from attending them. Do you understand what I'm saying? Does it make sense to you?

frankster In genetics we do....share in the same genes. Again, SOME of the genes we share are the same and some are different. No Answer....thanks If denial is the game you want to play..... You can IGNORE the facts I presented to you all you want but just remember that there's a reason why "ignore" is at the root of the word "ignorant"....lol. It is the same gene....expressing it self more or less Gene Variants are just different forms of the same gene That's like saying we both have the same 4 door car. My black 8 cylinder is just a different form than your white 4 cylinder. If they are different colors with different engines...they are DIFFERENT. It may be the same TYPE of gene meaning it's a gene responsible or color....or ear shape...or eye color; but the very fact that it expresses itself or behaves differently means it's a DIFFERENT gene than that same TYPE that doesn't express itself that way.

frankster Vitamins restore your health Affirmative Action recognizes and accepts your Rights....you always had those Rights - they are inalienable. That's not true. Inalienable means, "unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor." What rights do you or anybody else in this nation have that can't be taken away? Not true... He is self taught.....an autodidactic Meaning he sets his own rules.....not the education system Simply not true. He enrolled in an academic institution and followed the rules OF that institution to remain in it long enough to graduate and get a degree. He didn't set the rules...he FOLLOWED the rules. A homosexual act is homosexual....homosexual is sexual activities between individuals of the same sex However there's a difference between a "homosexual act" and a "homosexual". Just like there's a difference between someone who kills one time in self defense or by accident and an actual "killer". Homosexual lifestyle means he or she continues to engage in such activity for fun money pleasure or romance Even a "homosexual lifestyle" doesn't necessarily make one a homosexual. You must separate the ACT from the feeling/desire/inclination.

richardmurray adams isn't guaranteed to keep the spot. True. Nobody is. However with Trump helping him out and backing him....indirectly atleast...it's more of a guarantee. Trump has a way of helping his allies and getting things done for them that the Democrats don't do for their own if they are Black. yes the real estate industry, yes law enforcement, yes the private fiscal institutions will be able to support adams as an independent, which is underrated by some. By being an independent adams allows a combination of elephants + donkeys. That says it right there. But Mamdani has a strong crowd in the donkeys. The problem mamdani has is, he will need to explain how he is going to do a number of his promises and he hasn't. Because he can't. Not under a Trump Administration. He's an open Socialist, which doesn't sit well with MOST people in this nation, especially right-wing Conservatives and wealthy people of all backgrounds. How are you going to be the of a city that contains Wall Street and the Diamond District and Park Avenue...but openly say that you don't think billionaires should be allowed?

.....as long as we can see exactly WHO they are "rounding up and detaining". I told yall the other week I'm still seeing plenty of Mexicans and other Central Americans running around out here. That doesn't mean that all the ones I see are here illegally, but they're having far greater influence and impact on this society than they should. Which is probably just a drop in the bucket to the ACTUAL number of illegal immigrants who are here in this nation. Back in the 80s it was estimated that there were over 20 million illegal immigrants in this nation, no telling what the number is today some 40 plus years later.

Troy What does the shape of one's nose, or the texture of their hair you about a person? Their lineage. Just today when I presented information from the encyclopedia refuting a statement you made about the caste system you flat out rejected it The FIRST part of the article you presented actually CONFIRMED something I told you that you initially disagreed with me over. I said the Caste system is called "Varna" in ancient Indian which literally means COLOR. I TOLD YOU THAT before you even did the research on it. I KNOW ABOUT IT ALREADY....lol. I know far more about the Dravidian and ancient Indus Valley Civilization and Caste system than that article can tell you...lol. This is disappointing to me. I'm disappointed to find out that you didn't joint a college fraternity. If you had, you would know, understand, and agree with much of what I'm telling you because they would have REVEALED some of it to you later on.

Troy The way I see it people who continue to embrace the tool of the racist is the worst victim. You use the word "Black" on a routine basis and incorporate the term "race" for your website. Would you call yourself a victim? @Pioneer1 what purpose does it serve now? Identification People on the continent of India, come in many shades of brown, but they have hair like Europeans,. I guess you’d put them in the black bucket, which means you don’t have to have nappy hair to be black, right? No. Not as far as I'm concerned. Although the ancient Greeks classified dark skinned Indians (Dravidians) as Ethiopians. They said there were 2 Ethiopians. One down in Africa and the other in India. There are people with nappy red hair who you’d call Black so I guess having red hair doesn’t exclude you from being black. Malcolm X had red hair, and I wouldn't DARE question his Blackness...lol. Suppose a person had straight red hair could they be black? It depends on their other features. There are Black people with very fair skin. I already know you don’t like to call them Black. When so many others include the United States government called these people Black. And guess what? We're BOTH right. It depends on who's doing the classifying. If you don’t know anything more about the people after grouping then into different racial categories and what’s the point of doing it in the first place? Again, identification. Again ethnicity, is a far better descriptor. As it actually tells you something about the person. It doesn't tell you how they LOOK. Latino is an ethnicity. What does a Latino LOOK like? Jewish is an ethnicity. What does a Jew LOOK like? Black American a bunch of different ethnicities. Actually if you're talking about the United States, Black Americans are of primarily ONE ethnicity. frankster I Greatly enjoy our debates....I truly do not want it to end - I only hope he comes up with new more creative rebuttals... Same here. However I focus more on FACTS and ACCURACY than trying to be creative or entertaining in our discussions. Being accurate is usually my primary goal in any debate. They are not physically real....they are social agreements But they are REAL. You keep tagging extra words to it to prove a point that doesn't need to be proven and is irrelevant. I said they were REAL. No need to be "physically" real or "morally" real or "psychologically" real. As long as they are REAL. They are neither physically or objectively real Social constructs are ideas and preceptions Ideas and perceptions exist. Race is definitely unacceptable. Maybe to YOU..... But not to the government, science, and the leaders of society -they DEFINITELY accept the reality of race and racial categorization. Umbrarchist Aren't the Irish and the English different ethnicities? Do they look different? How about Italians and Germans? How about Swedes and Australian Aborigines. I've tried time and time again to explain to him that ethnicities are more about CULTURE than PHENOTYPE. That's why race is often used. Race is more about PHYSICAL/PHENOTYPICAL differences that transcend culture and national boundaries.

Troy This alone should tell you had race is completely arbitrary rendering it meaningless -- It's not arbitrary or meaningless. As you and frankster love to point out, it's a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT so it depends on how each society wants to CONSTRUCT it. Societies vary from country to country and in many cases from generation to generation so what may be considered a racial classification TODAY may not be 2 centuries from now. as it tells you NOTHING about the individual. It doesn't have to say TOO much. As long as they fit the description of what/who they're classified as. Declaring a person a "woman" doesn't tell you TOO much about a person, but it helps when deciding which bathroom to direct them to...lol. . However, this theory of the origin of varna has been discredited since the mid-20th century. The term may mean “color” in one sense, but it can also mean “characteristic” or “attribute,” and colors have often been used in Indian traditions in a symbolic classification structures. Lol @ "discredited in the 20th century". Discredited by WHO???? Funny how for thousands of years most people agreed upon that particular history but now all of a sudden over 3,000 years AFTER the fact...all kinds of "discrediting" information seemed to pop up out of nowhere to claim that what they've been believing in was made up and false. Man, seriously???? I'm not saying Hinduism and what the Indians accepted as their history was absolutely true. However I'm saying I can't trust whoever decided to try and "erase" the racist history of India's Aryan domination foundation. Race and all the flawed reasoning that flows from it needs to be dumped in the trash. Your very website...infact the very FORUM we're discussing in....is termed RACE, Culture, and Economy...by YOU, lol. This statement opposes your very own line of thinking.

frankster We all share from the the same gene pool... Sharing the same "gene pool" doesn't equate to all people sharing the same genes any more than everyone eating at a buffet means they are all eating the same foods. If you can find a gene that one human have and another does not please share??? No...as far as I know they are the same genes express to varying degrees. That's as far as YOU know....but there is MORE to know. A gene producing a different physical features in two people may be the SAME gene EXPRESSING itself differently in them for one reason or another, or they may be two different VARIANTS of that gene. It really depends.

Maybe Troy should lock this thread on a positive note while we still ARE in agreement....lol.

Shock of the week....lol

Let's find out.......lol.

frankster No it is not.... Humans of all ethnic groups have individuals with varying features and skin tones So??? Men vary in penis sizes....but they're still men. In the vast majority of cases their penis is bigger than a clitoris. Women vary in breast sizes...but they're still women In the vast majority of cases their breasts are bigger than a man's. Irish Poles Jews and some Italians were not considered White...and were treated as non whites. "Were not" is the key term, because they are now. It wasn't so much that they were treated as "non white" as they were treated as non Anglo-Saxons. At any rate..... Many Jews and Italians AREN'T White. Many of them are mixed and could truly be called Mulattos. FIXED Mulattos. And in many cases actually Black. Yet some Africans were considered whites/caucasiods......known as Hamites /Hamitic Yes, many Eritreans and Ethiopians are fit this bill. But again, race doesn't HAVE to be classified based on skin color. It could be ANY physical feature that a particular society chooses to base it on. Nose shape. Eye shape. Skin color. Skin color AND nose shape. Penis size. Almost any thing.

Adams is going to keep his spot. And I'm glad he will.

frankster Vitamin and minerals are nutrients that are not natural to you as a right....but must be gotten from the food you eat But the benefit is in the HEALTH that it maintains. If you don't need those vitamins or minerals, there is no benefit in taking them. You said: "Affirmative Action is not beneficial....it is Reparative Restitutive Restorative and Compensational for Wrongs. No advantage or profit was gain......you got back what was yours." Just like taking vitamins and minerals to restore you HEALTH is beneficial, Affirmative Action to repair, restitute, restore, and compensate for wrongs and RIGHT them, is beneficial also. There is and that is not proof that he did so It is absolute proof he did so. If he didn't agree to it, he wouldn't have passed those exams to get his degrees. It is an Homosexual act.... I agree that it IS a homosexual act, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's a homosexual infact.

The Diddy trial, just like the R. Kelly and other Black celebrities who've have criminal charges leveled against them for having sex and especially having the entire ordeal played out infront of a world wide audience.....is just part of a greater scheme. It's basically part of the centuries old racist routine of trying to portray Black men as sexual deviants or beasts whom women should be afraid of instead of finding attractive. The racists know that Black men are THEE most masculine men on the planet...hands down. Nobody else can compete. By NATURE....the most masculine men are the most attractive just as the most feminine women are attractive, it's biological. In an integrated society such as this where various races of men and women are routinely and freely coming into contact with eachother, the racists know that most women WILL choose the most masculine men to mate with....usually Black men. So in order to try and intercept this and prevent their racial "extinction" they try to scare as many White women as they can AWAY from Black men. It doesn't work most of the time, obviously.....but as far as the racists are concerned....any little bit helps.

frankster They are not real and do not exist in the sense that they are non/not physical in and of themselves. But not being physical doesn't equate to something not being real. Social Constructs are agreed upon and used to foster a way of living as a society... Yes. That doesn't mean they aren't real. They only exist within societies....without which they dissipate Ok, and???? Marriage is an agreement between two parties before a third group(family pastor government and friends) ...a SOCIAL/LEGAL CONSTRUCT. Religion is a construct of world view (mindset)imposed.....and is seen to be different from place tp place and time to time ...constructed by SOCIETY (social construct). Troy For the life of me, I cannot understand why this simple concept is completely lost on @Pioneer1. It does not matter how many different ways it is explained -- it make no difference. It makes no difference because no matter how many different ways yall say it it makes no SENSE, lol. Claiming something "doesn't exist" because it's not physical is borderline retarded. Since "wonder" isn't physical, that means "wonder" doesn't exist???? As a former educator, I'm curious to learn what it will take to help him understand this. However, I may need to just accept that some people are incorrigible when it comes to some subjects. As a former educator, you should be more focused on frankster's jacked up grammar than my position on race...lol. ProfD The real question is how much more time are you all going to spend trying to get him to see the subject differently. See it DIFFERENTLY is an excellent way to put it; because they obviously can't prove me "wrong"....and it's frustrating them. -They claim race doesn't exist....I prove to them it does. -They claim it's merely a social construct....I say so is marriage and religion, so what??? -They say it's not scientific...I provide scientific and medical journals clearly expressing race and racial differences in medicine and scientific circles. They would love it if I said 3 + 4 = 5 ....something you can EASILY prove wrong. But when it comes to calling people "wrong" simply because they don't see things from YOUR PERSPECTIVE, that's much much harder...almost impossible to prove. In earnest, I could call THEIR position of there being only "one race" just a silly and asinine product of denial and wishful thinking....lol....but I won't because I respect the right of other victims of racism to believe as they wish if that helps them cope with racism. Neely Fuller Jr. called it VGQ (Victim's Guaranteed Qualification). Since they too are victims of racism and confusion and don't know how to end it and must cope with it the best way they can....if DENIAL is the only way they can cope with it, they have that right.

frankster However there is still a difference between KNOWLEDGE and TEACHINGS. There are a lot of "teachings" out there. And most of them contain SOME knowledge, but many of them are saturated with falsehood. The wise learn how properly DISCERNE the information they get for the truth.

frankster Race as a soial construct is not based in biology but politics and social behavior If it's based on PHSYICAL FEATURES then it IS based on biology. Troy Many of your conclusions are based upon falsehoods. So PROVE one to be false then. And I don't mean giving your OPINION, but actual DATA that proves my conclusions wrong. But you say Homer was white. Does this point out how silly and racist the notion of race is? No, it just exposes how people see and categorize race differently. This is wrong too. To someone who is fixed on race they bring race into everything the caste system had nothing to do with one skin color at least not until european racists got involved. See, now you're just being combative...lol. What I said was absolutely true and all you have to do is RESEARCH it. Varna in ancient Sanskrit means "color" and again, the ancient system was based on SKIN COLOR. The reason there is no genetic test for race is because it is impossible to create one. Do you understand why this is true? Why do you need a "genetic test" if you're categorizing people based on APPEARANCE? This is phenotypical....not necessarily genetic.

frankster Environment Diet Geography Culture and Behavior influences and informs gene expression - epigenetics While this is true, it does NOT mean that we all have the same genes. Those epigenetic factors result in gene plasticity.....The same gene expressing differently Again, this is true but people STILL have different actual genes regardless as to how they are expressed. People share the same genes....the genes are expressed differently Again, SOME are shared...some are not. If what you saying were true.....everybody living in....say....ALABAMA...growing up in the same environment and eating the same foods would LOOK the same. There wouldn't be any differences in skin color, hair texture, facial features, etc....... Same environment eating the same foods, so there shouldn't be much if any difference.

frankster "Would you agree that there is benefit to taking vitamins and minerals for one's health?" Yes..... Why? When you take vitamins and minerals all you're doing is RESTORING your health to where it SHOULD be, which is good. According to YOUR logic, there is no profit or GAIN...you simply restored the health that was yours to begin with. You implied it... I said that him earning a degree is evidence that he compromised himself and submitted himself to accept the idea of race and even put up with racism in order to secure an education and degree IN a racist system. Yes....if they actually kissed. So even in ACTING...it is your belief that if a man kisses another man sexually, that denotes that he is a homosexual?

ProfD Correct. Strategic alliances are far more beneficial and productive. Exactly. We are WE getting out of the relationship? We don't need more competition here in America; so if more people are coming...we need to make sure they have something to offer US (AfroAmericans) when they get here. As soon as FBA/ADOS have it on and popping, generating products, goods and services for consumption, other groups of people will want to do business with us and make money too. Sure. It's easier to buy, sell and trade when one produces things of value to others This is true also. I witnessed it first hand growing up and seeing how SUCCESSFUL Black businesses often attracted a variety of people from all racial and cultural backgrounds. If they produced quality products and ensured the goods/services were issued in a timely manner, it was if race wasn't even an issue for their customers. Infact, I've even witnessed SOME non-Black people....not a too many...but some...actually go out of their way TO patronize Black businesses if they found one that was very successful with great service/produce. It was as if they were so amazed at Black people being so on-point that they had to keep coming back and checking them out.